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Its not that I have an emotional stake in Toronto its that I find the appeal of Montreal over Toronto may be more whimsical and emotive and even romanticized more. More unique for an anglo - yes I get that but more cultural prowess - I'd say debateable and by the numbers no. I wasn't challenging yours or anyone else's touristic preferences for Montreal over Toronto - I was challenging the assertion that there is more cultural prowess in Montreal over Toronto or that people are more vested in culture in Montreal over Toronto. That to me is not so simple a conclusion and by numbers it doesn't appear to be the case.
As for your comparison of Houston to Nola I would agree - Nola would be more interesting but take into account Toronto is far more interesting to me (even putting on the most objective hat I can) than Houston or Atlanta would be. Toronto is far more urban and interesting/quirky the whole lot. Some people (particularly in C/D I find) simply dismiss it as a business city and that is simply not the case. Until you experience the city, its nabe's and its offerings in a more complete manner than I think you are simply not deriving what the city is. That isn't an emotional take - that is how I see it as it is.
There are probably things about the city - gems/quirks about it you have no idea about. So, yes I am from the city and I know it fairly reasonably well so its not simply I have an 'emotional' stake in it. Its simply a weird and a lot more quirky/urban place than a lot of people who simply visit the basic core of the city and draw incomplete conclusions - give it credit for.
Besides - tbh Toronto is still quite a bit more visited than Montreal is and that probably won't change. I know if you judge by comments in this forum it would be the exact opposite but in real life and using real data and not emotional sentiment - Toronto simply is the more visited city. More people spend money here than in Montreal and its simply a larger city with a larger array of things to do (and a kick butt Pride I must say) which I love about it. I know some don't want to accept that but it is the way it is. That's not emotional - its an objective conclusion based on real statistics.
I've travelled quite a bit actually and although I love Montreal and Toronto and some U.S cities - I would only put them high in N.A.. My favourite N.A city bar none without any hesitation is Mexico City. That to me is the true fun/interesting/amazing/visually stimulating city on the continent bar none. I love love love Havana too! Toronto and Montreal don't even make my top 20 of most interesting cities in the world. Give me a city like Lisbon or Madrid or Istanbul or London or Bangkok or Kuala Lumpur or Beijing or even messy and chaotic Cairo over them for pure adrenaline and life. These of course are for a visitor - to live i'll choose Toronto or Montreal but to visit yeah - give me most Euro/Asian or Latin American cities all day every single day.
Toronto btw is marginally larger in metro population than Houston but is far far far more dense, urban and compact making it feel much bigger and more complete. The DT core of Toronto for example has 250K people in 8 sq miles. That matters in terms of vibe. Houston's core is dead compared to Toronto. There is simply no comparison. Chicago and Toronto compare far better than Houston or Atlanta would.
Judging by the vast scope, length, and borderline defensive nature of your previous replies, it's not really surprising when people call out that you do in fact have an emotional stake in Toronto. And that's fine - you've been a Torontonian all your life. It's okay to be biased towards one's own city, but don't always try to sugar coat that bias into some sort of objective analysis while throwing dungs at neighboring cities that you know very little about. Just saying.
Its not that I have an emotional stake in Toronto its that I find the appeal of Montreal over Toronto may be more whimsical and emotive and even romanticized more. More unique for an anglo - yes I get that but more cultural prowess - I'd say debateable and by the numbers no.
As for your comparison of Houston to Nola I would agree - Nola would be more interesting but take into account Toronto is far more interesting to me (even putting on the most objective hat I can) than Houston or Atlanta would be. Toronto is far more urban and interesting/quirky the whole lot. Some people (particularly in C/D I find) simply dismiss it as a business city and that is simply not the case. Until you experience the city, its nabe's and its offerings in a more complete manner than I think you are simply not deriving what the city is. That isn't an emotional take - that is how I see it as it is.
There are probably things about the city - gems/quirks about it you have no idea about. So, yes I am from the city and I know it fairly reasonably well so its not simply I have an 'emotional' stake in it. Its simply a weird and a lot more quirky/urban place than a lot of people who simply visit the basic core of the city and draw incomplete conclusions - give it credit for.
Besides - tbh Toronto is still quite a bit more visited than Montreal is and that probably won't change. I know if you judge by comments in this forum it would be the exact opposite but in real life and using real data and not emotional sentiment - Toronto simply is the more visited city. More people spend money here than in Montreal and its simply a larger city with a larger array of things to do (and a kick butt Pride I must say) which I love about it. I know some don't want to accept that but it is the way it is. That's not emotional - its an objective conclusion based on real statistics.
I've travelled quite a bit actually and although I love Montreal and Toronto and some U.S cities - I would only put them high in N.A.. My favourite N.A city bar none without any hesitation is Mexico City. That to me is the true fun/interesting/amazing/visually stimulating city on the continent bar none. I love love love Havana too! Toronto and Montreal don't even make my top 20 of most interesting cities in the world. Give me a city like Lisbon or Madrid or Istanbul or London or Bangkok or Kuala Lumpur or Beijing or even messy and chaotic Cairo over them for pure adrenaline and life. These of course are for a visitor - to live i'll choose Toronto or Montreal but to visit yeah - give me most Euro/Asian or Latin American cities all day every single day.
Toronto btw is marginally larger in metro population than Houston but is far far far more dense, urban and compact making it feel much bigger and more complete. The DT core of Toronto for example has 250K people in 8 sq miles. That matters in terms of vibe. Houston's core is dead compared to Toronto. There is simply no comparison. Chicago and Toronto compare far better than Houston or Atlanta would.
Okay so you find Nola more interesting than Houston which is far bigger yet cannot understand why Americans find Montreal far more interesting than Toronto? Sorry but it looks like bias.
I could point out "facts" or "stats" about Houston just like was pointed out to me about Toronto. For instance, did you know that Houston is the most diverse city in America, more diverse than NYC? It has more ethnic restaurants than any other US city. It actually has more percentage parkland than any other major American city (only Raleigh and San Diego have more %). It has world class symphony, orchestra, and operas that rival NYC. It has a museum district that has some of the best museums in the country. Its zoo is world class, it has all the professional sports teams you could dream of and world class sports arenas. I could give visitation figures for the museums and they would beat New Orleans' museums. Which by the way, for its small size, New Orleans does pack its punch as far as museums, the WWII museum there is #4 in the country and Houston has none that crack the top 10. But if you go by visitation numbers, which was used for Toronto then Houston wins.
People in New Orleans and Montreal live there to enjoy the culture, people in Houston and Toronto want to make money.
There's nothing wrong with being a practical city.
Its not that I have an emotional stake in Toronto (or I should say not quite as much as you may think - keep reading!) its that I find the appeal of Montreal over Toronto may be more whimsical and emotive and even romanticized more. More unique for an anglo - yes I get that but more cultural prowess - I'd say debateable and by the numbers no. I wasn't challenging yours or anyone else's touristic preferences for Montreal over Toronto - I was challenging the assertion that there is more cultural prowess in Montreal over Toronto or that people are more vested in culture in Montreal over Toronto. That to me is not so simple a conclusion and by numbers it doesn't appear to be the case.
As for your comparison of Houston to Nola I would agree - Nola would be more interesting but take into account Toronto is far more interesting to me (even putting on the most objective hat I can) than Houston or Atlanta would be. Toronto is far more urban and interesting/quirky the whole lot. Some people (particularly in C/D I find) simply dismiss it as a business city and that is simply not the case. Until you experience the city, its nabe's and its offerings in a more complete manner than I think you are simply not deriving what the city is. That isn't an emotional take - that is how I see it as it is.
There are probably things about the city - gems/quirks about it you have no idea about. So, yes I am from the city and I know it fairly reasonably well so its not simply I have an 'emotional' stake in it. Its simply a weird and a lot more quirky/urban place than a lot of people who simply visit the basic core of the city and draw incomplete conclusions - give it credit for.
Besides - tbh Toronto is still quite a bit more visited than Montreal is and that probably won't change. I know if you judge by comments in this forum it would be the exact opposite but in real life and using real data and not emotional sentiment - Toronto simply is the more visited city. More people spend money here than in Montreal and its simply a larger city with a larger array of things to do (and a kick butt Pride I must say) which I love about it. I know some don't want to accept that but it is the way it is. That's not emotional - its an objective conclusion based on real statistics. If Montreal posted greater visitation numbers than i'd be the first to post them! If Montreal was more internationally connected i'd post that but the reality is it simply isn't even if it is an interesting place. Give me numbers, give me figures, give me stats. Those speak to something - everything else is simply an opinion on interesting. I get what you're saying but numbers don't lie and can't simply be dismissed either.
I've travelled quite a bit actually and although I love Montreal and Toronto and some U.S cities - I would only put them high in N.A.. My favourite N.A city bar none without any hesitation is Mexico City. That to me is the true fun/interesting/amazing/visually stimulating city on the continent bar none. I love love love Havana too! Toronto and Montreal don't even make my top 20 of most interesting cities in the world. Give me a city like Lisbon or Madrid or Istanbul (when things settle down again) or London or Bangkok (best city in the world!) or Kuala Lumpur or Beijing or even messy and chaotic Cairo over them for pure adrenaline and life. These of course are for a visitor - to live i'll choose Toronto or Montreal but to visit yeah - give me most Euro/Asian or Latin American cities all day every single day.
Toronto btw is marginally larger in metro population than Houston but is far far far more dense, urban and compact making it feel much bigger and more complete. The DT core of Toronto for example has 250K people in 8 sq miles and adding consistently 12K new residents into its core alone every year (more than the growth of S.F city proper for comparison). That matters in terms of vibe. If not so much now particularly as we look to the next 5/10 years and more. Houston's core is dead compared to Toronto. There is simply no comparison. Chicago and Toronto compare far better than Houston or Atlanta would.
I've talked to many people and most believe Montreal is a nicer city than Toronto, not just Anglos. I know you love Toronto but just face it, Montreal is generally more desirable for North American tourists.
Judging by the vast scope, length, and borderline defensive nature of your previous replies, it's not really surprising when people call out that you do in fact have an emotional stake in Toronto. And that's fine - you've been a Torontonian all your life. It's okay to be biased towards one's own city, but don't always try to sugar coat that bias into some sort of objective analysis while throwing dungs at neighboring cities that you know very little about. Just saying.
I'm sorry being thoughtful and trying to express how I feel about it while weighing my commentary with objective information wherever possible isn't simply being blindly emotive. If Toronto's visitation numbers were a quarter of what they were and second to Montreal than i'd clearly fess up. If Toronto wasn't a fun and interesting city i'd fess up. Its not rock your world fun but its growing fast and becoming more and more interesting all the time. There's a dynamism to it that such growth brings and yes - to many Torontonians who adopt it as their home they try to take that in and be part of it instead of trying to repel themselves from it as you may be doing which is unfortunate! That said, notice how I mentioned Toronto ISN'T even in my top 20 favourite cities globally. Clearly that is a Toronto bias statement and being defensive
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I've travelled quite a bit actually and although I love Montreal and Toronto and some U.S cities - I would only put them high in N.A.. My favourite N.A city bar none without any hesitation is Mexico City. That to me is the true fun/interesting/amazing/visually stimulating city on the continent bar none. I love love love Havana too! Toronto and Montreal don't even make my top 20 of most interesting cities in the world. Give me a city like Lisbon or Madrid or Istanbul (when things settle down again) or London or Bangkok (best city in the world!) or Kuala Lumpur or Beijing or even messy and chaotic Cairo over them for pure adrenaline and life. These of course are for a visitor - to live i'll choose Toronto or Montreal but to visit yeah - give me most Euro/Asian or Latin American cities all day every single day.
That said, sure its home and I know more about it than other places so if I think its unfairly critiqued or even maybe not fairly understood than sure - i'll defend it. I could see your post if I never visited other cities but the fact that you post this isn't really surprising given our history so no you're not just saying. No sweat to me either tbh! Btw you owe me 15 bucks for that dinner lol... I thought I was being nice spotting it to you so you wouldn't have to break a USD but you never actually paid me back even though we met again afterwards - really bad form. See what nice does haha!
I've talked to many people and most believe Montreal is a nicer city than Toronto, not just Anglos. I know you love Toronto but just face it, Montreal is generally more desirable for North American tourists.
Again, can you please post numbers which shows Montreal receiving greater visitation than Toronto. Not just from N.A I mean globally.. If you don't like Toronto its cool - there are 40 million people a year who visit it who do - that's enough. If you can post stats that show Montreal as receiving more N.A visitors even i'd love to see them. Search and get back with those numbers by all means. I'm more than open to them.
So honestly - Toronto is growing a lot faster than Montreal and is more visited. It will be a much bigger place and much more dense and will have all the energy that goes with it (problems too no doubt that megacity status will bring) but I thrive on bigger cities - so what is it in the Canadian context I should feel wanting for exactly or all the other people moving here and visiting It should either?
Again, can you please post numbers which shows Montreal receiving greater visitation than Toronto. Not just from N.A I mean globally.. If you don't like Toronto its cool - there are 40 million people a year who visit it who do - that's enough. If you can post stats that show Montreal as receiving more N.A visitors even i'd love to see them. Search and get back with those numbers by all means. I'm more than open to them.
So honestly - Toronto is growing a lot faster than Montreal and is more visited. It will be a much bigger place and much more dense and will have all the energy that goes with it (problems too no doubt that megacity status will bring) but I thrive on bigger cities - so what is it in the Canadian context I should feel wanting for exactly or all the other people moving here and visiting It should either?
So of those 40 million only 25% of them are overnight visitors. And out of that 25%, how many are just over overnight layovers at Pearson Airport and surrounding hotels? The 40 million number is moot when there's no breakdown of how many of those are actually people who visiting Toronto as their final destination, vs. the millions of layover passengers enroute to Asian and Europe at Pearson Airport. And how many of those 40 million are destined for Toronto city proper, vs. the GTA as a whole?
Toronto had about 4 mln international visitors in 2015 (and Montreal had about 2.6 mln). However, the numbers don't really tell who are these people. Are they tourists per se (going with cameras taking pictures, visiting museums, ...), or business travelers (and Toronto is a financial capital of Canada, so I guess there are many business travelers here), or people visiting their relatives / families who immigrated here (and I believe there are many such people). And how many days these people stayed in the city? Should be very careful with the numbers...
So of those 40 million only 25% of them are overnight visitors. And out of that 25%, how many are just over overnight layovers at Pearson Airport and surrounding hotels? The 40 million number is moot when there's no breakdown of how many of those are actually people who visiting Toronto as their final destination, vs. the millions of layover passengers enroute to Asian and Europe at Pearson Airport. And how many of those 40 million are destined for Toronto city proper, vs. the GTA as a whole?
You're asking for very specific information. The only data I've seen available in the public realm is much higher level. I wouldn't say overall visitation numbers are meaningless but I would agree a comparative apples to apples breakdown would be beneficial. If you want to dig deeper by all means go for it! I think you'll be disappointed if the expectation is that somehow visitation in across the board metrics would be higher in other Canadian cities than Toronto.
I mean if you're asking percentage of overnight layovers just connecting its probably not that heavy. Most pax who connect do so with a shorter layover than O/N. Airlines just don't sell tickets like that unless the pax is travelling on separate tickets which means they'd spend more time in Toronto with a purpose than simply to fly to an airport hotel just to stay at an airport hotel. Most connections are less than 5 hours. You'd probably get a similar percentage in other CAD airports. Slightly less perhaps but really, you're talking about less numbers to begin with so it wouldn't be enough to make any meaningful difference.
By the way the source I used for the 40 million visitors isn't the pax numbers at Pearson. In 2015 there were 41.2 million pax at Pearson. In 2015 there were 40 million visitors to Toronto. They are close to one another so just didn't want their to be confusion.
Toronto had about 4 mln international visitors in 2015 (and Montreal had about 2.6 mln). However, the numbers don't really tell who are these people. Are they tourists per se (going with cameras taking pictures, visiting museums, ...), or business travelers (and Toronto is a financial capital of Canada, so I guess there are many business travelers here), or people visiting their relatives / families who immigrated here (and I believe there are many such people). And how many days these people stayed in the city? Should be very careful with the numbers...
Well don't forget a business traveller and a person visiting family is also a visitor who can double dip and do touristic things as well and visit a museum, the CN Tower etc. Montreal isn't a business slouch either and is actually a bigger convention city than Toronto. So sure, you'd want to break things down but you can't just dismiss overall numbers either and you have to take into account that Toronto isn't the only city that has people travelling to it to visit family members or to take part in business.
So yeah the visitor numbers aren't going to tell the whole story but they tell a story and its one that really isn't that surprising. In all likelihood Toronto will continue to have greater visitation across the board. Its a heavily connected city internationally and the only global hub. Its airport is busier than YVR 2:1 and even more so vs Montreal (41 million pax vs 15). YYZ has a very high percentage of O/D as well so it isn't as big a hub and spoke airport as most of its N.A peers. Even if only a quarter of those planes are filled with pax for just touristic purposes would still be high numbers. Its not like every single plane that arrives at YUL or YVR are all full of tourists. They come to visit friends, take part in business or they connect as well ie Prince George or Calgary etc in the case of YVR or Q.C and other cities in Quebec and even Canada for Montreal. So essentially the same conditions can be applied to visitation in all CAD cities.
Additionally, a day trip visitor goes to a museum or takes part in a concert/festival and has a camera and takes pictures. Day trip visitors count! As in all CAD cities, if a visitor travels to metro Montreal or Metro Toronto, most likely they will be making a trip to the core.
For instance, did you know that Houston is the most diverse city in America, more diverse than NYC? It has more ethnic restaurants than any other US city. It actually has more percentage parkland than any other major American city (only Raleigh and San Diego have more %). It has world class symphony, orchestra, and operas that rival NYC. It has a museum district that has some of the best museums in the country. Its zoo is world class, it has all the professional sports teams you could dream of and world class sports arenas.
You made up all this stuff, though. It's basically all exaggerated or wrong. Houston isn't as diverse as a NYC or LA, doesn't have as many ethnic restaurants, doesn't have more parkland, doesn't have top tier cultural organizations, and the like. It's a big, functional city that grows because it has a robust job market.
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