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Agreed. I also like professional basketball and baseball. Something Montreal also doesn't have in 2016.
Its all about taste indeed. Different strokes for different folks.
As an American we can get basketball/baseball in almost every city so it's not a special treat to see a game. So as a tourist that would not be a factor. However, I wouldn't mind catching a Buffalo Bills game at the Skydome. That would be an experience, although I'm not sure why they can't sell out an NFL game there.
God I hope not. Nothing against Houston, just don't want to see a historic American giant like Chicago fall back.
It'll likely happen down the line, and it'll embarrass the city, but it won't kill it. As for metro Houston, that's decades and decades away, and it depends on Chicago staying stagnant and Houston continuing to boom. Years from now Chicago may have sorted out many of its major problems, and Houston's growth may have slowed. There's a lot of variables in the air when it comes to predicting that far into the future.
It's not "my notion", it's Census-derived data. 10 or 20 years won't make any difference. Chicago will still be bigger than Toronto.
Chicago has a bigger urban core than Toronto too. Chicago is bigger by almost any measure. It has both more urbanity and more sprawl.
Toronto and Chicago both have about 2.7 million people in 243 sq miles of city proper in 2011. Toronto now more because it is growing more. Going beyond that 243 sq miles you're making less and less of a point that it is a larger 'city' because you're going into generally much more sprawl like territory.
Toronto is growing and densifying within its core far greater than Chicago is so saying Chicago is more urban is very dicey here. Everything else is a very low density subdivision or farm. Even Toronto's subdivisions are more dense than Chicago's. Outside of cores - Where in Chicago MSA is there a Mississauga or a North York City Centre for example so to say Chicagoland is more urban than the GTA or equivalent is highly debateable. I don't see it.
I've already said Chicago anchors a larger albeit heavily sprawled region.
Look at this
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Chicago is the 39th largest urban area in the world with 9.2 million people in 2647 square miles and a density of 3400 ppsm
Toronto is the 55th largest urban area in the world with 6.6 million people in 883 square miles and a density of 7400 ppsm
So what does that tell you? That tells you what I've been saying. That Chicago anchors a larger region but VERY sprawled out In comparison to Toronto. Toronto isn't even all that when it comes to density on a global standard but its certain far more compact and urban an urban area than Chicago is. Compare Chicago's population with other global cities and get your head out of the U.S MSA/CSA way of doing things and think about real cities with real density instead of an inflated balloon of low density fluff!
In 20 years Chicago will be more fluff and Toronto will be the larger city. Nuff said!
It has not been called the Skydome for a number of years........It is the Rogers Centre now.
The Bills have not played in Toronto for a couple of years. Their management couldn't get a decent crowd in a stadium that seats 50,000 for football. On the other hand the stadium is filled on a regular basis for the Blue Jays, and people from Buffalo DO come here to see MLB. Being a safe. clean, and friendly city has a lot to do with why Toronto gets 14 million visitors each year.
If you look at Montreal, look at the Montreal Jazz Fest and there's nothing comparable in Toronto. The history and culture is quite "real" in Montreal. Yes Toronto has the cultural institutions to beat Montreal but Montreal just seems a more interesting city to be honest, and uniquely French Canadian. Toronto isn't French and it doesn't even seem Canadian. Ottawa seems more "British Canadian".
Well you're getting into subjective here. If you like Montreals cultural offerings more all the power to you. I did say Toronto is too diverse to have a strong native culture so Montreal sure does have a more strong and larger unique native culture than Toronto for sure. I'm talking about overall culture. To say which is better I can't say. I haven't fully explored all the cultural offerings of my own city let alone Montreal. That said, by the numbers Toronto typically has larger festivals, more ethnic festivals that are larger, more cultural institutions and more artists plying their trade. Objectively I would say by the numbers, Toronto is the bigger cultural city.
Have you been to all of Toronto's festivals and theatre offerings and so on
Hmm. Even by your list, Montreal Museum of Fine Arts has more visitation than the Royal Ontario Museum, see snippet below:
"Montreal Museum of Fine Arts Montreal Canada 1,015,022 2013[3]
Museum of Liverpool Liverpool United Kingdom 1,015,022 2013[3]
Israel Museum Jerusalem Israel 966,502 2013[3]
Belvedere Vienna Austria 957,802 2013[3]
Royal Ontario Museum Toronto Canada 956,498 2013[3]"
A smaller city but more supporting of the Arts, goes with what I said about Montreal vs. Toronto.
Yes that is true but my point was that Toronto has two on the list and Montreal has 1. Combine ROM and AGO and that total is far greater than MMFA. ROM isn't too far below on an individual level (we are talking 50K visitors difference) and both institutions occasionally beat out the other for visitation. I'm looking on the whole here not 1 institution. Bottom line Toronto has 2 Montreal 1 so more overall visitors. I'm sure if you add up all the museums and compare the two Toronto would be on top. Toronto has the Aga Khan too.
TBH neither really shine when it comes to Museums globally but overall yeah - i'd still objectively give the edge to Toronto.
Metro areas are calculated on a county-basis. Chicago's metro area does include a lot of corn fields... Demographia measures urban areas via satellite imagery and estimates the Chicago urban area at 9,185,000 in 2,647 square miles. Toronto is 6,550,000 in 883 square miles.
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Toronto is more dense than Chicago, yes, but as it gets wealthier and develops more it will spread out. This has been the case with every urban area worldwide ever. The world's poorest urban areas are also it's most dense. Dhaka, Bangladesh, has 16,235,000 in just 142 square miles. Factories, office buildings, stores, hospitals, power plants, etc, all take up space that could be used for residential living. As incomes grow, the amount of all of the above that is needed per person, also grows, as does wanting more living space, making it inevitable that density will decrease. It's human nature. While development paths, infrastructural inertia, geography, cultural and government policies can change this somewhat, it is an inevitability of socioeconomic development.
Regarding the underlined. Ontario implemented what is called the places to grow act in 2005. This has changed the way our cities deal with population growth. Its also part of the reason Toronto is having this building boom. Its concentrating its growth in the core and not sprawling out as the typical U.S city would. So no - as Toronto's urban area population grows its not going to be another Chicago or Houston. It is still going to be a lot more dense in addition to being a lot more populated. If it does sprawl out than watch out! Why? Because it will then start enveloping southern Ontario CMA's that are not counted in its current urban area figures and they are heavily populated. By 2036 for example - the Golden Horseshoe is expected to be a population of 13.5 million people. That would certainly even be larger than Chicagoland (which is just hasn't been growing and projections for growth don't look good either) but we are talking a really expanded area and its not so 'city' like. That has been the point of my posts. Keeping it where its compact and matters in are real urban core things are changing fast in T.O's favour vs Chicago. In existing city propers of the same exact area - Toronto has more people and is now more dense and that is only going to continue well into the future.
Even Toronto's DT core is getting bigger. By 2036 it is expected there will be 450K residents in 8 sq miles that is the DT core. In 2016 Toronto's DT core is 250K in 8 sq.. That is up from just 176K in 2006.
When i'm talking about density no - I don't want Dhaka type density lol. We don't want slummy but we do want more dense 1st world form than the Atlanta's and Houston's and even Chicago's of the world.
This was not my measure but another poster but even with that post I proved that Montreal beat Toronto in that regard.
To me, things like the Montreal Jazz Fest, F1 races, etc... set Montreal apart from Toronto. There just seems more to do in Montreal. This is from an American that honeymooned in Canada, so my perspective is touristic based I guess.
Toronto has two different jazz festivals and the Toronto Honda Indy races.
This guy prefers the cultural offerings/attractions of Montreal. That is clear and that is fine by me. Where the problem is is in his ability to look at actual information vs what his preferences are is sorely lacking.
He keeps going on how MMFA has what only 50K more visitors than the ROM. Yet what he doesn't get is that Toronto has the ROM an AGO and others Museums etc.. They on the whole are more visited than what is in Montreal. Saying I prefer MMFA to ROM is one thing (I prefer ROM tbh its a far more complete institution) but willfully ignoring solid data and information is just perplexing to say the least.
I've never been to the museums in Toronto but I hear good things.
Clearly! The ROM is a fine institution. Its not the Louvre, British Musuem or the Hermitage but its excellent and enjoyable nonetheless. As is the AGO.. If you can visit the Aga Khan worth your while. Add the Gardner Ceramic Musuem to the mix and Bata Shoe museum as smaller niche on the side offerings. Some may call them third rate though I wonder how Peter Paul Rubens massacre of the innocents or the largest housing of Henry Moore Sculptures in the world is third rate. Still scratching my head on that one. The ROM also has interesting temporary exhibits. I've seen the dead sea scrolls there so if you can coincide a visit with a temporary exhibit along with its fine permanent one go for it!
Most important have an open mind and actually visit Toronto instead of overlooking its best parts and underscoring what it lacks all the time lol... Just my .02
Quote:
Originally Posted by GM10
I think Toronto and Montreal are both good places to visit. I just think you will need more days for Montreal as there is more things to see. You probably need 1 week in Montreal and 3-4 days in Toronto.
This coming from a person who hasn't visited Toronto's museum offerings. Do you like Theatre? Festivals? Indy? Sports? Bizarre how some throw F1 around for Montreal yet completely overlook Indy hmmm....
What do you like? If you say unique French Canadian culture and prefer F1 to Indy or a better Jazz festival than well - umm yeah. We can all sort of move the discussion to specific areas that we prefer to say something is better.... I could say I prefer Caribbean festivals to Jazz and hence sway things for Toronto as Montreal has no Caribana equivalent. See how that goes?
hint - if you like local theatre (not the broadway mirvish type stuff) go to Soulpepper theatre in the distillery district on your next visit. It is superb!
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