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While I empathize with much of what you posted, I cut this part out to discuss it alone.
Why it is hard to believe Americans who are of Irish decent (and many likely having relatives still in Ireland) supported the a means of trying to get Britain out of NI.
Whether reports or stories were embellished or twisted to give Americans a warped view of NI (as some claim), there is no denying the British were not benevolent toward the Irish, nor treating them equally with respect & dignity.
Bloody Sunday is but an extreme example of what many Irish experienced on a daily basis, hence the reason they were having a civil rights march that day.
The parallels with blacks in America, marching for their civil rights and experiencing brutality, is uncanny.
Another example would be the Amritsar massacre in India, which was not the norm, but reflected a general contempt for the Indian population by the British.
So if the British government could not be counted on to change things, and they showed no intention of leaving, what would be the answer in the minds of those who wanted to end British rule in NI?
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'' experience on a daily basis '' In many cases the Irish were better off than were the Ulster unionists. The unrest though out the western world was their chance to jump on that bandwagon. It was a chance they didn't miss. 1968 and the protests in France had the police and the protestors face to face and 200 were killed when the police advanced. It was so bad De Gaulle and his family fled to Germany. I believe too around this time that some students were shot dead in America. Kent University ? Then of course we had MLK and the protests there.
So we had them copying the same protests in Ulster. Even if we accept there were faults in the Ulster government those faults the protesters complained about were rectified in 1970. But this did not satisfy and it never would because the main thrust was always for a united Ireland and so the IRA who had been behind the 'civil rights' murdered and bombed continuously for years.
You talk of Bloody Sunday with no mention of Bloody Friday and the blowing to pieces of civilians going about their daily business. Some were in so many pieces that they had to be lifted on shovels into plastic bags.
Context!, I also referred to a particular massacre by the British in India eighty years ago, was in response to the comment by possibly that the world has "been fooled about British history"
If he can make such baseless statements, I'm entitled to not sit like a mouse in the corner
I didn't pick on you in particular Bob, except as a typical Irishman. Anybody from the outside of the Irish bubble reading this thread from start to finish, would get a great history lesson, going back to the Battle of the Boyne, and way, way, beyond that.
The English of today getting the blame for what happened centuries ago, and need to pay tribute because of it, to this day? Nah, we're tired of it.
White Americans seem fed up of being blamed for slavery, and the Indian massacres, from what I read in 'Politics.' Gawd, the English get blamed for events WAY before that.
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Originally Posted by irish_bob
Then you need to re-read what Dave posted, he said he was angry at what America did.
Individual Americans donating to an armed campaign is a different matter.
He saw the collection jars in NY. That's a sign of private collections. The federal government doesn't work that way. He saw the signs calling for a boycott of British goods and private collection jars. What he didn't know was that the IRA fundraising was squelched when the feds got the person, just before the person was going to move to another city. He had wondered all of those years and I filled in the blank for him. The federal government wasn't pleased to have the IRA fundraising in this country. There were also guns involved.
I don't remember who was over here fundraising. It might have been Gerry Adams. Whoever it was, was in the country illegally.
Did you not read what Dave & I discussed? The IRA was sending individuals to the US to fundraise. I said nothing about the federal government.
Your spot on southbound. Mark Devenport is a correspondent for the BBC. Years back he spoke to an IRA gun-runner from New York (George Harrison) who said that if unionists did not accept that they were Irish then they should be driven into the sea.
An Irish nationalist Paddy Joe McClean was approached by Sinn Fein to vote for them. He asked what were they going to do about a million unionists. They replied by saying ' they'll have to swim '. Paddy Joe said ' but what if they refuse to swim ' The reply was ' then they should be driven into the sea '
The same answer to a similar question even though they were thousands of miles apart.
My point is that their Irish and Scots have tried to revise their own histories to play down their involvement in imperialism. You've not only moved the goalposts, you're playing a different sport.
The question is whether England/Britain would even still be in NI if it were not so close in proximity.
Most of their "colonies" were too far away to maintain control, whether it be America, India or the like.
Ireland has the misfortune of Britain being right across the Irish Sea, otherwise with all the blood and treasure lost trying to control them from a much greater distance, it would have been abandoned.
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The parts of Ireland that wanted to be free of British rule gained independence 100 years ago. Decades before the Indians, Africans, Egyptians, etc. So I'm not too sure of that distance argument. Distance just meant that Ireland was the first place they set their sights on.
On that separate point some have been discussing about IRA donations. I've spoken to a number of Americans who claimed they were mislead, and never would have supported the cause if they had known that their money was being used to kill innocent civilians. I'm sure not all were in the dark, but clearly the IRA would have understood that advertising their violence wouldn't have been good PR.
Of course all good terror organisations are good at raising funds. No surprise that cities like Boston are fertile ground for IRA fundraising, just as certain British cities ware great recruitment grounds for ISIS.
Last edited by PossiblyIndecisive; 02-11-2019 at 11:12 AM..
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Originally Posted by Ulsterman
Your spot on southbound. Mark Devenport is a correspondent for the BBC. Years back he spoke to an IRA gun-runner from New York (George Harrison) who said that if unionists did not accept that they were Irish then they should be driven into the sea.
An Irish nationalist Paddy Joe McClean was approached by Sinn Fein to vote for them. He asked what were they going to do about a million unionists. They replied by saying ' they'll have to swim '. Paddy Joe said ' but what if they refuse to swim ' The reply was ' then they should be driven into the sea '
The same answer to a similar question even though they were thousands of miles apart.
Honestly, Ulsterman, I don't dwell on this stuff, but I've dug into the history and I'm old enough to remember the recent stuff.
I'm a US citizen. I think he is. Maybe if he thinks that the IRA fundraising was a good idea he thinks Vietnam was a good idea. Neither was our business.
In answer to your question, I am born and bred in the greatest country ever conceived in human history. So yes I am American, or as some Brits like to derisively call us, Yanks.
As to your assumption about me approving of IRA or the support from the Irish living in America, you are conflating understanding with activism.
I have never sent a penny to the IRA (wouldn't know how even if I wanted to). Just as I have never sent a penny to the Loyalist groups in NI.
My statement was playing off how Dave pointed out some Americans were supporting the IRA (more on that in another post when I have time). He found it disturbing and perplexing, and from a English/British point of view, that is understandable.
Yet I was pointing out how some Irish in America probably supported the IRA as a means of their friends & family not being under the rule of an alien power.
As to your connection to Vietnam, you totally lost me on that comparative analogy
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Originally Posted by Vector1
In answer to your question, I am born and bred in the greatest country ever conceived in human history. So yes I am American, or as some Brits like to derisively call us, Yanks.
As to your assumption about me approving of IRA or the support from the Irish living in America, you are conflating understanding with activism.
I have never sent a penny to the IRA (wouldn't know how even if I wanted to). Just as I have never sent a penny to the Loyalist groups in NI.
My statement was playing off how Dave pointed out some Americans were supporting the IRA (more on that in another post when I have time). He found it disturbing and perplexing, and from a English/British point of view, that is understandable.
Yet I was pointing out how some Irish in America probably supported the IRA as a means of their friends & family not being under the rule of an alien power.
As to your connection to Vietnam, you totally lost me on that comparative analogy
`
Dave and I are close in age. I never saw what he saw, but I heard about it. The feds busted the IRA fundraisers. It wasn't our business to be involved. Anyone with a TV and half a brain knew giving money to the IRA was not going to a good and benign cause. We had no more business giving them money and/or guns than the government had to drag us into Vietnam.
Honestly, Ulsterman, I don't dwell on this stuff, but I've dug into the history and I'm old enough to remember the recent stuff.
Fair enough southbound.
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