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— Letter ponders the future of disabled rights post-Brexit: A letter to the Times penned by a group of activists questioned the progress of disabled rights if Britain were to leave the EU, noting that Britain’s membership in the EU brought about not only disabled rights, but also maternity rights, equal pay and workers’ safety. The letter: Disability, trade deals, economy and the EU | Comment | The Times & The Sunday Times
Do these people not have confidence in the UK Parliament and their elected representatives to legislate for these rights or do they prefer them to be mandated by unelected officials in Brussels?
I took this from another site but it is pertinent to the discussion.
The UK is not voting to leave the EEA or WTO, meaning all of the UK's trade and benefit agreements will remain unchanged should we leave, until such a time that the UK decides to renegotiate them for any reason.
The UK is not voting to leave NATO, meaning our security agreements remain unchanged. Should we receive an act of hostility from a non-NATO member, then NATO countries are obliged to come to our assistance. This does not change.
The UK is not voting to leave the UN, G8 or G20, meaning Britain will have the same voice on the world stage as it does today.
The UK is not voting to leave Europe!! The UK will still, geographically, be part of Europe. Non political organisations aligned to Europe will still extend membership to the UK (I.e. sports governing bodies, and so on).
The UK is not voting to stop recognising Interpol, Europol and neither are you voting for SIS / MI6 to stop dealing with other intelligence services in the fight against terrorism and global, organised crime.
The UK is not voting against being able to travel to Europe. The UK has always maintained stricter border and passport controls than many EU members. This will not change. People will still use a passport to go on holiday and will still be allowed entry to countries in Europe.
Medical and science research will not simply stop. The UK pays into the EU to then get money back in the form of funding. The UK will now be in control of this money and can choose to fund whatever UK based medical, science, art or other research it chooses.
Farming will not lose money because of EU funding being cut. The UK negotiated a rebate of some monies that the UK pays to the EU, in order to subsidise UK farmers. Instead of asking for our money back, we can give it straight to farmers. No change there.
The UK is not voting against human rights. The EU Convention on, and European Court of, Human Rights are not part of the EU. Until parliament passes a new bill of rights for the UK, these will still apply, as will precedents already passed down to UK courts from Brussels.
The UK is not voting to kick anyone out of the UK or block access to anyone. Neither are they voting to stop recruiting valuable European workers into things like the NHS. The UK is already outside of the Schengen zone and so migrant workers must enter the UK with a valid passport before and after June 23rd. That will not change. British borders maintain full control of who comes and goes. Should someone have the skills to apply to work in the NHS, then they will still be permitted travel and given an opportunity to apply for a job. Worst case, points based assessment, like Canada and Australia use, will come into effect. The UK is likely to negotiate freedom of labour movement though, in exchange for freedom of goods movement.
The UK is not voting to move jobs nor production out of the UK! The EU actually helped fund the move of Ford Transit production from the UK to Turkey... Yes, the EU helped give UK jobs to people in Turkey by giving Ford a loan of £80m with very generous terms!
With respect, that first graf on the WTO/EEA is very simplistic. It might better be phrased as "some people think they are not voting to leave the WTO/EEA".
And while leaving the WTO is not on the ballot, the practical effect of leaving the EU, may be a renegotiation of UK/WTO status.
The UK currently agrees with/abides by EU/WTO status and protocols. If UK leaves it can no longer claim, (or maybe be trusted), to abide by EU/WTO protocols, and if so, the question of what protocols pertain is a very open one.
Lots of developing countries unhappy with their EU arrangements for X or Y may see an opportunity to negotiate a better deal for themselves with what will be perceived as a weaker UK. They'll likely say, either you accept what we've negotiated with the EU, or give us a better deal. That's a loose loose for the UK.
The UK is a member of the EEA, because it is a member of the EU. Leave the EU and it has to conclude negotiations with the EU just like Norway etc. Plus of course, new negotiations with Norway etc.
While the pro Brexit people accuse the remainers of scaremongering, I think it's equally if not more true that the leavers are being willfully ignorant of the potential consequences of Brexit.
Do these people not have confidence in the UK Parliament and their elected representatives to legislate for these rights or do they prefer them to be mandated by unelected officials in Brussels?
Well if you read a graf you cut out, you'll see that the BBC is reporting that the remain MP's (a big majority), are contemplating ignoring the will of the people if the vote goes against them.
Read recently that it takes only 3 people to form a quorum in the House of Lords. Now there's democracy for ya.
edit: 30 needed to pass legislation, 3 needed to have a debate.
BREXIT ANXIETY RISES AGAIN - FT's Roger Blitz: "Brexit anxiety gripped investors after fresh polls underlined the renewed momentum for the Leave campaign, driving the price of insuring against a post-referendum collapse in the pound to a seven-year high and putting the vote front and centre for financial markets. ... Online polls carried out by ICM and YouGov for the first time gave clear leads of four and five percentage points to the campaign for Britain to quit the EU.
"They come after a poll last week showed those pushing for an EU exit had a small lead. ... The FT poll tracker now puts the Remain camp ahead by just 2 percentage points - two weeks ago, its lead was 6 percentage points. Bookmakers still expect the Remain camp to win, but reported a flurry of bets on a Leave outcome and cut the odds of Brexit. Sterling at one stage lost 1.1 per cent against the dollar, itself severely weakened by surprisingly weak jobs growth data" Sterling volatility heads higher as Leave camp builds lead - FT.com
Azevedo: Brexit could cost billions, years in lost trade
Quote:
-- By Adam Behsudi
6/7/16, 4:25 PM CET
A United Kingdom exit from the European Union could cost the country nearly $8.4 billion a year in extra duties and take years of complex negotiations to return to its current trading status, WTO Director General Roberto Azevedo warned today.
“While trade would continue, it could be on worse terms,” Azevedo said in a speech at the World Trade Symposium in London. “Most likely, it would cost more for the U.K. to trade with the same markets — therefore damaging the competitiveness of U.K. companies.”
The United Kingdom would need to reestablish preferential trading relationships with the EU as well as the 58 countries with which the EU currently has free trade agreements, he said.
The country would also need to take the unprecedented step of reestablishing its terms of trade within the WTO, since it entered the global trading group as an EU member, Azevedo said.
“I can say that negotiations merely to adjust members’ existing terms have often taken several years to complete — in certain cases up to 10 years, or more,” he said. “However, as far as the U.K.’s case is concerned, it is impossible to tell how long it may take.”
The U.K.’s negotiating leverage would be weakened because other countries might not be in any rush to start new trade talks, Azevedo warned. In addition, conducting multiple negotiations at the same time would be complex and the government might not have the capacity to do so, he said.
“It could take quite some time before the U.K. got back to a similar position that it has today in terms of its trading relationships with other countries,” Azevedo said.
Well if you read a graf you cut out, you'll see that the BBC is reporting that the remain MP's (a big majority), are contemplating ignoring the will of the people if the vote goes against them.
Read recently that it takes only 3 people to form a quorum in the House of Lords. Now there's democracy for ya.
edit: 30 needed to pass legislation, 3 needed to have a debate.
BREXIT ANXIETY RISES AGAIN - FT's Roger Blitz: "Brexit anxiety gripped investors after fresh polls underlined the renewed momentum for the Leave campaign, driving the price of insuring against a post-referendum collapse in the pound to a seven-year high and putting the vote front and centre for financial markets. ... Online polls carried out by ICM and YouGov for the first time gave clear leads of four and five percentage points to the campaign for Britain to quit the EU.
"They come after a poll last week showed those pushing for an EU exit had a small lead. ... The FT poll tracker now puts the Remain camp ahead by just 2 percentage points - two weeks ago, its lead was 6 percentage points. Bookmakers still expect the Remain camp to win, but reported a flurry of bets on a Leave outcome and cut the odds of Brexit. Sterling at one stage lost 1.1 per cent against the dollar, itself severely weakened by surprisingly weak jobs growth data" Sterling volatility heads higher as Leave camp builds lead - FT.com
Investors don't like any change. You would have a similar scenario if the vote were to join the EU rather than to leave it.
Sterling will remain volatile until the issue is decided one way or another and relative certainty returns to the markets.
However, if you look at the 5 year chart of the Pound against the Euro then you will see a steady strengthening of the Pound which reflects a generally better economic performance over the period of the UK compared to the Eurozone.
Against the US Dollar, the story is one of general decline over the past 5 years. However, this started well before the EU referendum was even mooted and is more due to economic fundamentals than anything else.
In other words, Brexit related currency movements are a blip and not a trend.
Nice job in not answering my original question and trying to divert the topic onto something else.
So, I originally posted seven links, without comment, four in favor of remain, three against. You pick one of them, a letter to The Times, and ask me if the writer has no confidence in Parliament?
On that particular issue it seems self evident that the writer does not have confidence, otherwise why write?
My reference to the HoL was to point out that the complaints of leavers that the EU is undemocratic, ring hollow when compared with the situation in the HoL.
The article also implies that you need trade agreements to do business. You do not!
No one would know what a Brexit "could cost, and one can always find argument that works in his favour. There will undoubtedly short term costs, but what about the benefits? Who measure that?
There is also additional cost associated with remaining in the EU, all the regulation and what it does to the UK. They don't seem interested in calculating that either.
All this fear mongering is stupid. If the UK could work well prior to joining the EU, it could function just fine without it, maybe better, because the EU doesn't work, in theory or in practice. Look at what they are doing to Greece -- they are not even trying to help the poor nation.
The British will be smart to leave the EU. Honestly, what's so hard with signing new trade agreement with other countries? The UK is famous for embracing free trade.
Last edited by botticelli; 06-07-2016 at 02:30 PM..
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