Is brexit the beginning of the end of the UK? (home, club)
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Being a member of the EU limits your independence however. No EU country can negotiate trade agreements, they have to accept certain requirements whether they like it or not. Whether that's independent or not is purely a matter of perspective, the US wouldn't consider it independence, Tibet certainly would.
Being a member of NATO limits independence, or being a member of the WTO, any international treaty or membership of a supranational organisation does that.
There is no such thing as 100% independence where you can do exactly what you want without considering Intensively rules or the reactions of other countries, even if you are North Korea that shuns all external influence that is not the case.
We never signed on for millions of Europeans to come live in our country, causing all the problems I have listed before. The end of us being a member of the EU, began when eastern Europeans came flooding into our country, starting after Tony Blair allowed them to do so. Most other EU countries had a period of time, those folks didn't have work rights. Blair allowed them to come, and take jobs. I remember clearly in the newspapers....... we expect about 10,000 says Blair. Almost a million came.
It was the sovereign decision of an elected government of an independent UK that decided we would not implement any transitional period for migration from Eastern EU countries. As you say, other independent countries that are EU members made different choices.
It is not an argument providing evidence that the UK was not an independent country at that point.
Being a member of NATO limits independence, or being a member of the WTO, any international treaty or membership of a supranational organisation does that.
There is no such thing as 100% independence where you can do exactly what you want without considering Intensively rules or the reactions of other countries, even if you are North Korea that shuns all external influence that is not the case.
Indeed, but the WTO only requires you abide by trade requirements, NATO you meet defense requirements. The EU was joined as a trade partner 40 years later its spread into domestic and international policy, countries internal economic policies, social welfare, employment law, food and product regulations, it's not discrete and in keeping with its original purpose.
I guess it's like considering that being provided accommodation, food, your utilities for the sole purpose of being obliged to fulfill every demand at any time without excuses isn't slavery, you're well provided for, and cared for, you're just can't go anywhere, do anything, are on call 24/7/52.
It's original purpose was an 'ever closer union' between the member states. That's all there in the original 1957 Treaty of Rome, and no other member states seem surprised that this is what it is. The alternative of 'just a free trade area' was EFTA, but most members of that including the UK left to join the more ambitiously integrationist EC instead.
I have just watched a very subdued Jeremy Corbyn, offering his congratulations to Boris Johnson, on his election victory. In fact, it looked like all the strength has drained from Corbyn's body.
Boris accepted with good grace, and seemed himself restrained, and not wanting to kick a man when he is down.
Jeremy Corbyn is an old man of 70 years of age, and it seems to have caught up with him all at once. Time to go Jeremy. Go look after your allotment, and relax, and enjoy your life. I think it would be a good idea, after a short time, to resign from his seat, and let some young, and eager person fight an election for his place in Parliament.
He fought for what he believes in, and it just wasn't what the people wanted. They want Brexit pushed along throughout 2020, and to end our membership of the EU, and hopefully get a trade deal we can live with, a year from now.
Britain is going to be an independent nation, for the first time in almost 50 years. I know we have the talented people in this country to make a success of it.
Be careful in what you wish and in assumptions. While the Brexit issue likely did influence many former Labour voters, it is doubtful that many opposed a lot of the actual policy on offer by that party.
Lets just wait for the agenda of Boris to be released and see how many stay on board. Britain has always been an independent country regardless of some assertions. If things like the likely loosening employment laws and what have you is regarded is improving life of the natives then we are on very different pages.
Again all very well remaining a small target during an election. Wait and see the agenda yet to be released. While you may continue to applaud, many others will not.
The proof will be in the pudding I guess. Let's come back in 10 years time and see if Great Grimsby, Blyth Valley, Leigh, Wrexham, Bolsover etc are transformed into modern dynamic economic powerhouses with their social issues well on the way to being solved.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MnM258
The UK has always been an independent nation, that's why we have a seat at the UN, and other countries have ambassadors here, they don't just have them in Brussels to cover the whole of the EU. The UK is recognised as an independent country by all other independent countries in the world.
Being a member of the EU doesn't make a country not independent any more than being a member of the UN, or the WTO, or FIFA makes a country not independent. I mean seriously, are people saying that Germany is not an independent country now, or France, or the US for being part of NAFTA, or countries that are in ASEAN, or NATO, or MERCOSUR?
Do you have a concept of the difference between NAFTA and the EU?
Be careful in what you wish and in assumptions. While the Brexit issue likely did influence many former Labour voters, it is doubtful that many opposed a lot of the actual policy on offer by that party.
Lets just wait for the agenda of Boris to be released and see how many stay on board. Britain has always been an independent country regardless of some assertions. If things like the likely loosening employment laws and what have you is regarded is improving life of the natives then we are on very different pages.
Again all very well remaining a small target during an election. Wait and see the agenda yet to be released. While you may continue to applaud, many others will not.
Brexit was the issue. We have obsessed over it, ever since the 2016 vote on EU membership. It has obsessed politicians and public alike. The politicians let us down, and the Labour party have been punished for not listening. They allowed the London based Labour MPs to push their agenda.
All we heard was, 'we want a second referendum. A people's vote......' We had a people's vote, and it's result wasn't carried out. Anger simmered in the population outside the Labour party London bubble. We watched the humiliation of Theresa May, and the attempts to do the same to Boris Johnson. He knew he had to force a General Election, as his only way forward. Labour fell into the trap, and eventually agreed one.
We had to leave the EU. This has been coming for 20 years. A growing resentment, and beliefs that the EU didn't give a damn about our worries over mass immigration.We were basically told hard cheese, and suck it up. We watched David Cameron's efforts to get the EU to listen before the EU membership vote. They dismissed him, and he came home with nothing.
Then, the pressure was put on us to vote remain. Even President Obama wheeled out to warn us we were to go to the back of the queue for trade talks. Threats from within the Tory government if we dared vote to leave. Well, that's exactly what we did do. All this angst since 2016 is because politicians tried to ignore the vote result. Labour sat on the fence, where instead Johnson had his slogan, 'let's get Brexit done.' We saw the result of that last Thursday.
Yes, the road ahead is not going to be easy. I think Johnson can now be honest with the public, what damage a no deal Brexit will do to jobs and prosperity. But, he has to have this as his big stick to wave at the EU. They know now, they are dealing with a very different Boris Johnson. He is now a PM with almost total power to do anything he wants. It's up to them now. No more game playing.
You say I will continue to applaud while others may not. All Boris has to do is be honest with the public, especially his new supporters in the north of England. A sea change has come to pass. He will want to keep those new Tory voters. These next five years are going to be very interesting.
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