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I haven't read the whole thread so maybe this has been addressed. But here's a different take. From the British perspective, they knew us collectively as "British America" and after independence as "British North America" (Canada, Bermuda, etc.). All of this, pre-USA times. So shortened...that would be "America". Not unlike "India" when you really stop and think about it. "India" was a collection of rather different states (nations/colonies) until independence. "America", a collection of (their) colonies.
Wouldn't it be simpler to say US though?
America isn't the name of the country, the name of the country is United States. "of America" is its geographic location. It was added to the Declaration to emphasize the separation from England. It was a revolutionary statement with a political intent.
Before "United States" was decided on they called themselves "United Colonies" for a short while. But that referred to a connection to England so it was changed to States. Each state thought of itself as a separate country with its own government.
America isn't the name of the country, the name of the country is United States. "of America" is its geographic location. It was added to the Declaration to emphasize the separation from England. It was a revolutionary statement with a political intent.
Before "United States" was decided on they called themselves "United Colonies" for a short while. But that referred to a connection to England so it was changed to States. Each state thought of itself as a separate country with its own government.
Could have been called United Countries then.
As I said earlier, US works as a noun and is commonly used here. But it is awkward to Australian ears as an adjective. As in “ that is a US car, not Japanese” . Then it becomes “that is an American car”.
As I said earlier, US works as a noun and is commonly used here. But it is awkward to Australian ears as an adjective. As in “ that is a US car, not Japanese” . Then it becomes “that is an American car”.
"United Statian" just sounds really weird.
Last edited by danielsa1775; 08-02-2023 at 07:28 PM..
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Originally Posted by James Austen
I thought the song came from the Great Potato Famine in the 1840s. Not all those sent to Australia were criminals in any sense of the word. Stealing a loaf of bread or caught in a burglary could get transportation for life. Poverty makes a man do desperate things and the east end of London was rife with poverty. Transportation to New South Wales/ Botany Bay was a convenient way of dealing with the poverty, reducing the population in Newgate prison and re-populating a new colony
The song was about some Australian bush criminal, and whilst not everyone who was sent to Australia was a criminal, the Tolpuddle Martyrs being a case in point, many were found guilty (rightly or wrongly) of various crimes and sent to the penal camps in Australia.
In terms of the Victorian working classes in Britain, they were important in relation to the industrial revolution, and in relation to everything from cotton mills to mining to ship building etc etc,and even women and children worked in horrendous conditions for very little pay, whilst living in extreme poverty.
The likes of Engels (along with Marx) and Dickens wrote extensively about the poverty, as well as injustice of the time, which led to new political thinking which would have implications for the entire world.
Any society that allowed for the disgusting levels of poverty described by Friedrich Engels in 'The Condition of the Working Class in England' (1845) was not going to go out of it's way to help the Irish or anyone else, and most people did not have the right to vote at the time, as only those who owned property had such a right, and property stipulations and although relaxed in 1867 to include some working class urban males that met property stipulations it wasn't until 1918 that the 'Representation of the People Act' extended the vote to all men over 21 and most women over 30.
Last edited by Brave New World; 08-03-2023 at 08:13 AM..
The song was about some Australian bush criminal, and whilst not everyone who was sent to Australia was a criminal, the Tolpuddle Martyrs being a case in point, many were found guilty (rightly or wrongly) of various crimes and sent to the penal camps in Australia.
In terms of the Victorian working classes in Britain, they were important in relation to the industrial revolution, and in relation to everything from cotton mills to mining to ship building etc etc,and even women and children worked in horrendous conditions for very little pay, whilst living in extreme poverty.
The likes of Engels (along with Marx) and Dickens wrote extensively about the poverty, as well as injustice of the time, which led to new political thinking which would have implications for the entire world.
Any society that allowed for the disgusting levels of poverty described by Friedrich Engels in 'The Condition of the Working Class in England' (1845) was not going to go out of it's way to help the Irish or anyone else, and most people did not have the right to vote at the time, as only those who owned property had such a right, and property stipulations and although relaxed in 1867 to include some working class urban males that met property stipulations it wasn't until 1918 that the 'Representation of the People Act' extended the vote to all men over 21 and most women over 30.
Small wonder then that criminality was rife during this period. Too often men who would have led an honest life were forced into crime to survive. It was a totally failed society. As for the Irish they were the least fortunate. They were taken from one set of oppressors in Ireland only to end up under another set of oppressors in Australia as the wealthy who had come to Australia to buy land for farming had soon set up a feudalistic society of their own and many of the "criminals" laboured on these newly founded estates in a condition of near slavery.
As for the Wild Colonial Boy the song goes that he was "born and bred in Ireland in a town called Castlemaine" So no. if the song is accurate he was not of Australian origin
Australian here, I always though the song was Australian, It was right up there with Waltzing Matilda as far as songs you just learnt as kids 40 years ago. Through I really have no knowledge of where it came from and who wrote it originally.
The bushranger era really only began in the 1850's after the Gold was discovered (far more valuable stuff to steal ), Thought there was a trickle of convicts arriving in what was then the Colony of Western Australia up to 1853, it was actually ceased on the east cost the Colony of New South Wales in 1840 (The colony still included Victoria and Queensland at this time). As such Most of the "wild colonial boys" referenced would have been either free settlers from Ireland, or the Australian born children of Irish convicts/immigrants.
As for why the USA, its called America, simply because its the last word in the full formal name of the country, which is how just about every other country in the world is termed.
The Peoples Republic of China.
The Commonwealth of Australia
The Kingdom of Thailand
The United State of America
etc etc
In Australia its quite common to hear the country been referred to as "The Commonwealth" especially when talking matters regarding the federal constitution/federal government and federal law courts.
Then perhaps a more accurate name would be The United States of North America.
Since there are three America's, and only one China, Australia etc.
The name is believed to derive from the the Italian explorer Amerigo Vespucci.
There are also other explanations, including being named after the Amerrisque Mountain range in Nicaragua, or after Richard Amerike, a merchant from Bristol, England.
In terms of Britain, we usually call the country the US or USA (United States of America), however in terms of the population they are usually referred to as Americans, although they sometimes can be referred to in relation to a particular state or city, such as a Texan or a New Yorker etc.
The giant land mass of North America, Central America and Southern America is usually referred to as the Americas rather than America.
In terms of America it's just a shortened version of the United States of America, just as the United States (US) is, and in terms of Americans, there is no other word I know of for citizens of the United States of America, so I am not sure what other countries are supposed to call Americans unless you want it to start calling you United Stater's or USAer's.
Is there something else that Americans want to be referred to.
Yes, many "Americans" (speaking of which) use the term America as well, and no one is confused by it....and if they want to criticize behavior in political discourse, they might call it "un-American" - it's always understood that you're talking about the USA or its people or their ways.
For better or worse the citizens of the USA are known as Americans and it's certainly less awkward than "Statians" or "USAers" or some such.
My question was much simpler: why do many, not all of course, Brits say America instead of the shorter and simpler US. That's all.
Example which has been repeated many times when people hear my accent: a cabbie was driving me to Evensong at St. Paul's. When he heard my accent he asked me why everyone in America went so crazy over a British accent. (Couldn't really say, might have something to do with the Beatles ).
Then he told me after WWII his whole family, aunts, uncles, cousins, his parents, himself, sister, etc. all planned to move to America. Everyone did but his parents were held back for some reason, can't remember, elderly parents maybe. Anyway they stayed.
But my cabbie and his sister often visited their relatives in America who had settled in California, natch. He said on his last visit he and his cousins had gone bar hopping and when people heard his accent he didn't have to buy a drink all night, as he put it. He was still shaking his head in wonder.
Cute story but what struck me was the guy never said US, always America. And that's mostly what I hear.
Last edited by RubyandPearl; 08-04-2023 at 05:27 PM..
People from China, Japan, the Koreas, Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand, Indonesia are these days referred to as Asians. You don't hear people say Chinese or Japanese communities. Today it's always called the Asian community.
So what's wrong in calling someone from the U.S an "American" even though the Americas are divided into individual countries just as the continent of Asia is ?
This whole thread subject is a bit pointless IMO
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), Thought there was a trickle of convicts arriving in what was then the Colony of Western Australia up to 1853, it was actually ceased on the east cost the Colony of New South Wales in 1840 (The colony still included Victoria and Queensland at this time). As such Most of the "wild colonial boys" referenced would have been either free settlers from Ireland, or the Australian born children of Irish convicts/immigrants. 
