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What I can't believe is people that are LDS that tell me I need to move out of Utah county and that they wouldn't even live there. Why do they feel like that? That's terrible to feel like people just can't get along!
A lot of LDS people like diversity, just like anyone else. I would go absolutely nuts in Utah county myself. I'm quite a bit more liberal than the average LDS person, too, and to be surrounded by people whom I felt (maybe wrongly so) were judging me for doing things they wouldn't do, would be very uncomfortable for me. On my street in Cottonwood Heights, we have amost exactly 50% LDS and 50% non-LDS. It's perfect for me.
A lot of LDS people like diversity, just like anyone else. I would go absolutely nuts in Utah county myself. I'm quite a bit more liberal than the average LDS person, too, and to be surrounded by people whom I felt (maybe wrongly so) were judging me for doing things they wouldn't do, would be very uncomfortable for me. On my street in Cottonwood Heights, we have amost exactly 50% LDS and 50% non-LDS. It's perfect for me.
People shouldn't judge at all especially people that follow religion, I was always taught about forgiveness and everyone was different and you could always change. But anyway, I will say not everyone I have come in contact with in my neighborhood makes us feel bad some of them are really nice and come over and talk to us when we work on our yard and wave when they drive by. Those few people make it bearable here!
Hey it's me again,
Just wanted to keep everyone updated, it has been fourteen months and still there has been no change. I have had many private messages from other people who have had similar experiences and who share their concern for the children and I just wanted to jump on here and say thank you to everyone. It is really really nice to know that it isn't just me and my family, that there are many others who are being treated the same and that they also know it is because they are not of the same cultural persuasion.
Cycle
It's such a shame that people that move here are treated as they are, like outsiders. Living in NY, I lived in a small town we welcomed everyone. Everyone is different and there is not reason to treat someone different bases on color, sex, or religion. I can't believe the things I've seen on here and other sights saying well if you don't like us leave, we don't want you here anyway and things like that. I know not everyone is like that here but the few that are give this state a bad name. I'm trying to get my friends out to visit me and they are scared to come out here. they are scared that someone will treat them like crap because they want to go out for a couple of drinks or that they will be looked down upon because they aren't so worthy. such a misconception about Utah because there are a lot of nice people here! Why do a few people have to ruin things for everyone?
Thank you for your kind response. I do accept the fact that it is just a small area that I live in where I am having these issues, but the fact also exist that there are pockets of this kind of behavior all over Utah Valley, I have met online with many non-lds women who have had the same experiences I have had...have you ever been to Cafemom.com, there is ongoing chat's under non-lds utah valley moms where we are allowed to discuss the things we are subjected to and the positive things we can do to help alleviate the sense of isolation many of us have been enduring do to the fact that we do not fit in with our neighbors.
You stated in your response "It is possible that my LDS neighbors ARE giving me the cold shoulder, but I just never notice it. I am quite reserved myself and figure that if they don't wave, neither do I." I am quite the opposite, I am outgoing and I always wave first, it is humiliating how many times my kids have asked me why our neighbors didn't wave back...It is the constant refusal to acknowledge our existance that is so horrible. If I am outside cleaning my car in the driveway on a Sunday and streams of cars will come into our neighborhood, we live on the main street into the neighborhood, the women in the cars intentionally turn their heads away and the men just look straight on...I guarantee you that there is no way they could miss me or my husband, we are right there. It is the same thing no matter where I go, I can walk towards a woman and in any other civilized place I have lived, when two women are walking towards each other (nothing else going on, no children to distract) I always make eye contact and give a slight smile or some non-verbal form of acknowledgement of existence when you are walking into each others path. Every single time it has happened the women walk by without even looking at me, they look straight ahead or down at the floor and pretend like I don't exist, I see the lines of their garments from behind and I know...But if I am walking towards a woman who has her hair messed up, wearing sweats and a tank top, she immediately glances towards me and sometimes there is a smile, sometimes there is a frown, but she at least realizes that I exist.
I would prefer not to hear that it isn't a LDS thing, because I know it is. My neighbor right next door to me came to me recently and asked me if I was LDS because they had just moved into the neighborhood. I told her that I was not and she said that she was. She asked me how I survived living in the area, whether people actually talked to me, I told her that in all the months I have lived here only two people have talked to me other than on our first day here. She said that she had started going to the church but that the ladies there were refusing to accept her and that she was very depressed because they were making it clear that she didn't belong and that she felt like an outsider. She said that none of the welcomed her and they wouldn't make eye contact with her at all. She is LDS from Hawaii and she felt she was being shunned because she wasn't one of "them", whatever them is, but if a member of the LDS church doesn't feel welcomed or even feels like she is being shunned and doesn't exist in the eyes of all our neighbors then is it so hard to believe that I am receiving the same treatement becasuse I am not one of "them".
Let me reiterate, not all mormons behave this way, it is not an LDS wide behavior, but there are some in the LDS church who are extremists and will make it clear that if you are not one of us then you are beneath us and don't deserve to be treated in a civil manner. These pockets of extremists do exist and I just would like people to be aware it could happen to them, it is cruel and unjust, especially to the children...It is not called being over-sensitive, it is called being treated like dirt just because I do not believe in their religion...It hurts.
All I am asking is for you to allow others to get on here and post their experiences even if it comes across as an attack because I understand completely where their anger and frustration comes from and some people are not eloquent with the written word, but that doesn't mean that their experiences didn't happen...all it means is that they are fed up and want to have their voices heard...Thank you for taking the time to read my post I really appreciate it.
Well you know it can go both ways. Perhaps they feel you are judging them and don't like them for their beliefs? Or that because they just got back from church and you didn't, that maybe you feel awkward around them? There are many LDS people who feel that way because of past persecution. (I.E They are being judged) Perhaps see what happens by making a concerted effort to talking and communicating with them, instead of just looking at one another.
Also, there's a LARGE number of people in Utah who get upset because they constantly think their mormon neighbors, when being friendly, are just using it as a ploy to 'convert' them. I think that's also part of the reason why some may not go out of their way to come talk to you, because they possibly feel you may feel threatened by it, as if you're just a potential 'convert' to them. So they just mind their own.
Obviously this is not always the case, it's just a different point of view I'm trying to show. From my experience in the Church, I've never experienced or been taught to shun those who aren't LDS. It's the exact opposite that is preached. In fact it's something I've heard repetitively preached and focused on. So I do think it's possible that people perceive things the wrong way.
I for one try to do my best and be friendly to every one and think we all should.
Hey it's me again,
Just wanted to keep everyone updated, it has been fourteen months and still there has been no change. I have had many private messages from other people who have had similar experiences and who share their concern for the children and I just wanted to jump on here and say thank you to everyone. It is really really nice to know that it isn't just me and my family, that there are many others who are being treated the same and that they also know it is because they are not of the same cultural persuasion.
Cycle
I read the first few pages of this thread several days ago and it just popped up again. I'm not able to read through the whole thread, but based on what I have read I'll chime in with my experiences. It sounds like not much has changed in 30 years, as far as attitudes and acceptance goes.
I grew up in a SLC suburb where I lived for the entire decade of the 80s. My father was transferred there for work in 1979. My family isn't Mormon, nor were we particularly religious (didn't go to church at all). The experiences the OP and others have shared is nothing new, though I'm surprised it still goes on with such intensity.
As a young child, I did have friends throughout my neighborhood (all Mormon) and being so young religion wasn't really an issue. That changed dramatically starting around age 12 when all of my childhood friends began acting differently. I was asked incessantly to attend church functions with them, and after enough declines I found I didn't seem to have friends anymore. The sleepovers ended, I wasn't invited to their parties, phonecalls stopped, I sat alone on the bus. It was weird.
I'll never forget one day at school sitting at the edge of the long lunch table with a bunch of other girls - girls I had known and been friends with since kindergarten. Someone started handing out birthday party invitations to everyone...except me. I felt truly ostracized. After this many lonely months passed when suddenly I got a phonecall from a girl who had been my best friend for years up until I started getting the cold shoulder. She called to invite me to her "party" and while it seemed awkward I said ok. Turns out the "party" was one big Mormon get-together with a bunch of girls and some mothers, talking about the church and asking me why I had declined offers to visit the church. Just more weirdness.
My parents didn't fare well socially, either. It seemed like once word got around the neighborhood that our family wasn't LDS the friendliness stopped. I can't say the unfriendliness went so far that neighbors did not wave - because they did. But that was about the extent of it. I have zero memories of my mother chatting with a (Mormon) neighbor in the yard or on the sidewalk, zero memories of my mother going out shopping or out to lunch with a (Mormon) neighbor, zero memories of my parents or my family being invited to neighborhood parties or BBQs, etc etc etc. My parents were as outcast as I was. The only friends my parents seemed to have were people met through my father's employer (a lot of other outsiders transferred for work) or people my father met through his small network of Germans in Utah (he's German).
Again, this is how I remember Utah from the 1980s. I once submitted a long story on the exmormon.org website sharing my experience. Some of you here might get a kick out of reading others' stories - they're all pretty similar.
While I think their belief system is odd, and I think the innards of the church is a grand opulent scam, and I think they're creating generations of repressed, depressed people who would otherwise be just fine if it weren't for the pressures put on them from the church....I really don't have many hard feelings about the Mormon people as a whole. They're industrious, educated, they value their families, they work hard to be self-sufficient in the event of disaster, and they help their neighbors during hard times (well, neighbors that are also Mormon of course).
I returned to Utah for a 5-day visit back in 2006, my first time there since leaving in 1990. It was fun seeing all the old places and remembering things I'd forgotten. What I remember most - playing the tourist and not revealing I actually grew up there - was how incredibly friendly the Mormons were. I even scored a free ride to/from the airport in a shuttle operated by the Temple...and yes, I gave them the courtesy of touring the Temple grounds. It was interesting.
I can identify with almost every word of what RedAppleNM wrote. My younger siblings and I also suffered horribly as youngsters in Salt Lake.
My father was also transferred here in 1979 for work. When we arrived, it seemed that everyone in the neighborhood was there to welcome us. We were overwhelmed by the sense of community, in fact.
Of course, much of what was happening was a massive neighborhood-wide attempt to bring my family into the fold. We were one of only a few non-mormon families in a fairly affluent area of Salt Lake and it was almost as if we had targets on our backs.
No joke, every single day for the first several months after moving to Salt Lake, there seemed to be someone knocking at our door to invite us to a party or to church. People brought food to our house every week for some reason or another too. There were some families who even asked us to go on vacation with them. We obliged them and, when they were sent, even welcomed missionaries into our home as a courtesy.
However, when push came to shove and the bishop who had befriended my father flat out asked us to convert, my father graciously declined and told him that we were lifelong members of another church and that adopting another faith wasn't an option for us.
Wow! How fast did we get dumped by the entire neighborhood!
My mom was never invited to be a part of the book club anymore and my dad lost a host of jogging buddies overnight. No more neighborhood get-togethers or trips to the lake either. And the kids were absolutely cruel to my younger siblings and I. We were constantly left out of playgroups and, much like RedAppleNM, we were the only ones not invited to some birthday parties. Of course, as children, we couldn't really understand why no one wanted to play with us or why we were the last picked for kickball or soccer teams. And imagine the tears when we were left out of those birthday parties!
There was even a time I remember asking a girlfriend at school if she wanted to come over to my house to play and she told me that her daddy said "no" because we (my family) "had no religion." Of course we had a religion. It just wasn't their religion. Things got so bad for us in public school that our parents finally pulled us out and put us into private school. In fact, my dad and I recently talked about that incident. He said that it was at times like that the he regretted taking that job in Salt Lake. His kids suffered terribly for that decision and I think that he has always felt a bit guilty about it. Nonetheless, it was a great opportunity.
The sad thing about the way that non-Mormon kids in Utah are often treated is that they ARE NOT ABLE see it for what it really is--harsh, unfounded judgement that comes about as a result of being a minority in a vast LDS population.
Kids don't necessarily understand why they are being rejected. The just know that they ARE being rejected. Then, they take the rejection, internalize it and suffer because of it--and it all happens at a critical time in their formative years. It affects who they become as adults.
Kids aren't mature enough to understand that you are just as good as the neighbor kid next door. Sure, a child may have wonderful parents that make him/her feel loved, but when no one wants to sit by that child at school or when that child is the only little girl or boy in his/her class that doesn't get invited to a big birthday party...that child can't help but feel like there is something wrong with him or her. They don't reason like adults and can't see the situation for what it actually is. They hurt and that's it. And that pain affects their self-esteem. It is all so sad.
As children, my siblings and I weren't old enough to understand that we hadn't done anything. We just felt we weren't good enough or likeable enough. Instead, we were just a different religion and that seemed to really irk a lot of people. I often ask myself how this may have affected who we have become as adults. For example, all but one of us has two masters degrees apiece. I kind of wonder if it had something to do with making up for feeling inadequate as non-Mormon rejects growing up in Utah during the 1980s. Just a thought...
Sad stuff, people.
As a sidenote, I will say that I think that it is different these days. I don't think that non-Mormon families are pounced on with the intent of converting them like they were in the early 1980s. Nowadays, I think that there is much more respect for a family's choice. Of course, that doesn't mean that life becomes any easier for you in Utah. It just means that your decision is respected.
I do think that Mr. Anderson may be onto something when he says that perhaps LDS neighbors aren't as talkative to non-members because they don't want them to feel that it is all a ploy to convert them.
Of course, anyone who has read my opinions in other threads knows that I truly believe that there is a sense of superiority that exists among the LDS with respect to non-members. However, as I mentioned, I think that there was a time when there was a HUGE push to convert anyone and everyone in Utah. My family was definitely here during that time and I will be the first to admit that the last thing I want is for someone to try and bring me into the fold. Perhaps because of that HUGE push in the past, our Mormon brethern are a little standoffish?
hi all! i'm new to the board. i'm not LDS, but i LOVE living in provo! i think it's because people are nice, and the place is predictable. i've NEVER had a problem with the neighbors at all about religion. i'm also gay, and hang my rainbow flag out from the balcony. no one has said a word about it. i guess i live in a good neighborhood. not ONCE has anyone NOT talked to me about anything. i've lived here for YEARS and enjoy it. i've lived in salt lake, HATED it..the people in the neighborhood i lived in were...stand-offish..which bugged me. too big of an area to feel any real "ownership" in. i've lived in other places too, but provo just fits me just fine.
also, on sunday, i've found out it's the BEST day to shop! we (the non-mormons etc) have the whole town to ourselves!! that's the day i go to movies, etc....
it's too bad a lot of others have had negative experiences here regarding that. i haven't. i, quite frankly don't care what people believe. i know we all have weird beliefs: i believe in bigfoot and UFO's! like THAT'S not weird?! i say, WHO CARES and lets go watch a movie!
anyway, just my two cents...i like the thread...it's good to challenge ourselves!
poodledoodledude
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like THAT'S not weird?! 
i say, WHO CARES and lets go watch a movie! 
