Utah Valley - Can we be allowed to share our experiences? (Sandy: low crime, daycare)

[Alene]

Originally Posted by stycotl

and i can attest to you, based off of my experience, that you are noticing it overly much.

in the end, it all comes down to anecdotal experience, doesn't it?

I can assure you that isn't the case. I am not offended when someone asks me about my religion, I have just noticed it happens in Utah more than in other places. People care what religion you are. I am absolutely not the only one to notice this - as evidenced by this thread.

i certainly might be strange, or just hang out entirely with more liberal groups of mormons or something, but i am acquainted with *hardly anyone* that cares what religion their friends are except in a purely "getting to know you" manner.

The last part of your sentence is key - "except in a purely "getting to know you" manner." Regardless of what manner it is meant in, either way it boils down to people caring what religion you are.

because of that, i don't see that religion coming up in a conversation is "caring what religion they are." the word, "caring," implies some level of emotional commitment or concern, which would be the implication that you seem to be trying to make (especially further down in your post).

it is very possible to be curious or conversational about religion without having some kind of concern or agenda regarding the religious choices of the other participants.

By "caring" I mean desirous to know what religion you affiliate yourself with. Not necessarily because you dislike anyone outside of your religion or that you intend to treat them differently. But it is human nature to need to put people in a box. In Utah we like to box people by religion, in other states it is something else (education, what neighborhood you live in, what sports team you like). In other states religion is not a topic of conversation that comes up right away. In Utah it is. You don't notice this as much when you are part of the predominant religion.

that would be rude.

again, that would be rude.

this should go without saying: that would be rude.

It isn't rude to shift someone to a mental box - everyone does it. What is rude is to act on that mental shift and treat someone differently. Is it rude to decide not to bring up Family Night when you find someone isn't mormon? No. Is it rude to avoid the topic of the Prophet? No. Is it treating someone differently than you might treat someone that is mormon? Yes. And sometimes that is the only difference. But sometimes it means being excluded or seen as a potential convert and suddenly the conversation becomes a lesson - and that is definitely rude.

one of my epiphanies came when during the latter end of my senior year, i was dating a girl named sarah. months into our relationship i found out she was baptist or lutheran or something (i can't remember now). it completely floored me the idea that i wouldn't recognize a nonmormon that i was that close to (yeah, yeah, i know. i was a naive kid––still am in a lot of ways). but it opened my eyes in some regards. i still dated her until i moved later that summer, and she is still one of the fondest crushes that i have ever had.

I think that you are absolutely right, much of the problem - on either side - is perception. If you become sensitive to people being rude you will notice people being rude much more often than you might otherwise. But does that mean that there isn't a problem or that you are creating the issue in your own mind?

I think it is very admirable that you wouldn't even ask the religion of the person that you were dating right away, but I can tell you that you are in the minority on that one. Most members want to know the religion of the person they are with right away because it is an inherent part of the LDS religion: without knowing their religion you don't know if you can ever become serious about this person, you don't know if they will share your values about sex, smoking, coffee, swearing, Sundays, etc. In fact, it would nearly impossible not to infer an individuals religion quite quickly simply based on how they treat those things. And just to clarify, I am talking about active members.

basically, i am dead certain that miscommunication is the largest culprit. i am dead certain that most of the mormons and most of the nonmormons in this state would get along splendidly if all they did was give each other the benefit of the doubt and expect that the other was not out for blood.

You are probably right. Utah is definitely divided into Mormon and Non-Mormon and it is only exacerbated by the fact that neither side wants to communicate. I think talking about it is the best thing we can do. It can only help.

that's about it. anyone that got this far deserves a pat on the back.

aaron out.

Patting myself on the back

[SouthernBelleInUtah]

Originally Posted by Alene

I can assure you that isn't the case. I am not offended when someone asks me about my religion, I have just noticed it happens in Utah more than in other places. People care what religion you are. .............

I've lived in the Bible belt of the South, where that is practically the first thing out of someone'e mouth after "hello." You can't tell Baptists from Methodists on casual conversation.

[Alene]

Originally Posted by SouthernBelleInUtah

I've lived in the Bible belt of the South, where that is practically the first thing out of someone'e mouth after "hello." You can't tell Baptists from Methodists on casual conversation.

Touche - I should have said "more than other places I have been." The East Coast, the West Coast, Montana, Colorado, etc.

[stycotl]

i need to clarify something right up front so that it doesn't get lost in the verbal tsunami that is to follow:

in now way am i claiming that since nonmormons are sensitive to the topic of religious ostracism, then they see it where it doesn't exist, and this then means that it doesn't exist period.

i thought that i had made it quite clear that this was not an issue in my head; i have seen mormons knowingly ostracize and snub individuals based merely off of their (perceived) religion.

now, i want to also clarify that this is not a utah phenomenon; you mention that this doesn't happen in others states, that religion doesn't enter into conversation in other states.

this is in direct opposition to my own (and apparently southernbelleinutah's) experience in other states and even other countries.

utah might seem like it is an alien planet, but it is actually pretty darn similar in social nature to the rest of the world because people all over the world have the same social tendancies. more on that later.

Originally Posted by Alene

I can assure you that isn't the case.

my point wasn't to tell you that this is what is happening in your case; i can't judge that in any regard because i don't know you. my point was just that my anecdotal experience differs from yours. therefore, it is what happens in some situations, but not all, and it would be logically fallacious to try to presume that this is specifically what happened in your case or some other case that i was just hearing about second hand on the internet.

I am not offended when someone asks me about my religion, I have just noticed it happens in Utah more than in other places.

more, yes; i'd agree with that. but this isn't a utah monopoly either. i have lived in utah, virginia, argentina, california, georgia, florida, north carolina, and iraq, and i have *always* found people that were more than happy to talk about religion. always.

it is a fact of life that some people live by the "two things we don't ever talk about: religion and politics" rule, and that there are some people that never follow that rule. then you have all of the in-betweens, the ones that won't mind talking about it with some people, but not with others, or that will and want to, but feel nervous doing it, etc...

People care what religion you are. I am absolutely not the only one to notice this - as evidenced by this thread.

i didn't claim that it doesn't happen, or that it doesn't happen here more than elsewhere. i did claim that there isn't an actual element of "caring" as often as some people think it is there. more on that below.

The last part of your sentence is key - "except in a purely "getting to know you" manner." Regardless of what manner it is meant in, either way it boils down to people caring what religion you are.

true. but you have to admit that there is a difference between someone saying, "you want to come over on sunday––oh wait, are you going to be at church?" and someone saying, "die, baptists, die!!!"

one of them is not inherently offensive, though some people still take offense to it. the other is blatantly offensive, and most people recognize it as such.

there is a gray area in between, i admit. but what that comes down to, in my experience is intent, and i have come to the conclusion that i need to give people the benefit of the doubt in gray areas, because for all of my knowledge of pscyhology and people, i still cannot judge gray area intent without becoming accusatory.

By "caring" I mean desirous to know what religion you affiliate yourself with.

i state again that there is nothing inherently wrong with that. if there is evil intent behind it (ostracism, insults, etc), then it is wrong. but if it is just a question meant to get to know someone, or to understand what this person is going to participate in with you, it is simply a part of the healthy socialexperience.

Not necessarily because you dislike anyone outside of your religion or that you intend to treat them differently. But it is human nature to need to put people in a box. In Utah we like to box people by religion, in other states it is something else (education, what neighborhood you live in, what sports team you like).

those things are also used to box people into cliques in utah, and religion is also used to box people elsewhere. i promise you, even in liberal california, religion matters.

there are degrees of prevalence in different areas. but they all exist everywhere i have ever been.

In other states religion is not a topic of conversation that comes up right away. In Utah it is.

every time i was transferred to a new unit in the marine corps, as soon as the guys learned that i was religious, i would answer questions about mormon doctrine, my views on philosophy, and world ethics multiple times a day. people that i had no other interaction with would sit down and join me for hours-long conversations about religion and related issues. officers and staff noncomms would condescend to shoot the breeze with me in discussions about faith or the lack thereof (i knew quite a few atheists and agnostics in the military).

point is, i found people *very* interested in talking about religion, and very willing to have respectful, nonhostile dialogues with people of others faiths or their own.

these guys are from all walks of life from all over america and even other countries.

i have noticed this within the civilian world as well, but it is usually

You don't notice this as much when you are part of the predominant religion.

if you are refering specifically to me instead of people in general, i doubt it. this is the same kind of logical fallacy that i would have made were i to have decided right off the bat that you were sensitive to religious discussion and therefore see it where it doesn't exist.

it is *probable* that those of a predominant religion won't notice that their topics of conversation are not universally understood or appreciated. it is not a scientific law.

again, i became pretty aware of this in high school. it has taken me years to get to the level of comprehension that i have now, and i certainly have far to go. but i can promise you that i understand and notice how often religion comes up in topics in utah and other areas.

It isn't rude to shift someone to a mental box - everyone does it. What is rude is to act on that mental shift and treat someone differently.

that was primarily what i was talking about.

Is it rude to decide not to bring up Family Night when you find someone isn't mormon? No. Is it rude to avoid the topic of the Prophet? No. Is it treating someone differently than you might treat someone that is mormon? Yes. And sometimes that is the only difference. But sometimes it means being excluded or seen as a potential convert and suddenly the conversation becomes a lesson - and that is definitely rude.

agreed.

I think that you are absolutely right, much of the problem - on either side - is perception. If you become sensitive to people being rude you will notice people being rude much more often than you might otherwise. But does that mean that there isn't a problem or that you are creating the issue in your own mind?

this is what i wanted to clarify up top; my theory doesn't rely on the idea that there isn't a problem, that nonmormons are chasing shadows and seeing offense where none exists.

it relies on the idea that both parties make those kinds of assumptions, which i feel is pretty accurate. it relies on the idea that most of the time, social interactions are innocent and devoid of malignancy, but that it is still possible to read it in where it didn't exist before. i have seen this on both sides, including the mormons assuming that the new neighbor is unfriendly or rude, when really the new guy only wants to be respected in whatever religious system he has adopted.

I think it is very admirable that you wouldn't even ask the religion of the person that you were dating right away, but I can tell you that you are in the minority on that one.

minority, yes. but even 49% can be a minority. i honestly have no clue as to exact numbers, and i don't really think it matters, because this is less of a mormon issue anyway. but i also know a good number of mormons that are in a similar situation as far as dating goes, especially dating for fun as opposed to dating for potential marriage.

Most members want to know the religion of the person they are with right away because it is an inherent part of the LDS religion: without knowing their religion you don't know if you can ever become serious about this person, you don't know if they will share your values about sex, smoking, coffee, swearing, Sundays, etc. In fact, it would nearly impossible not to infer an individuals religion quite quickly simply based on how they treat those things. And just to clarify, I am talking about active members.

agreed. realize that this is not even remotely a mormon issue, though. i've read books about psychology and marital counseling that discuss finding someone of your own religion, culture, and nationality. that the mormons also do this does seem to offend some people, but we hardly invented it or ran wild with it.

i think some people take offense because they assume that it must mean that they are inferior. any mormons that really think nonmormons are inferior have missed the boat, and are living their own narcissistic fantasy rather than the doctrine of the church.

You are probably right. Utah is definitely divided into Mormon and Non-Mormon and it is only exacerbated by the fact that neither side wants to communicate. I think talking about it is the best thing we can do. It can only help.

i heartily agree with this. talking about religion can actually be cathartic; many people have stuff that they want to get off of their chest, whether it is a rant, a horror story, or even a guilt trip.

what i really find interesting is that some people claim to be uncomfortable talking about religion, but then seem eager to bring it up when they are in the right conditions (with someone they trust, in a group of like-minded individuals, or even just on the anonymous internet––which is interesting because the internet is one of the most hostile place to talk about religion).

Patting myself on the back

i'd pat you on the back too, but then i'd probably get slapped with a restraining order or something, and then the we-hate-gentiles and we-hate-mormons committees would cry out for blood, because i must have forgotten that mormons and those of other faiths can't agree on anything or get along.

ok, bad sarcasm...

anyway, i appreciate your input. like i said earlier, i think you and i agree on probably 96% of the details of these situations.

aaron out.

[SLCPUNK]

Originally Posted by grannybug

My ex-husband is a jack-Mormon & has often said if he lived elsewhere, he would probably get reinvolved in the LDS church but he can't stand the attitude of Utah Mormons generally (obviously not specifically, since we both knew many wonderful Mormons).

I have had other Mormons in Utah tell me the same thing.

[MrAnderson]

There are extremes which should never occur (e.g being rude to someone because they're not part of your religion) but at the same time LDS people are in a unique situation - the majority of the world does not believe in the same values they believe in (church, drinking, sex, movies, music, marriage, etc.), so this makes it harder for them to completely involve themselves with non-LDS people, and is why they are more protective over who their children correspond with, as a person's peers influence them more than possibly any other group.

That's just the reality of it, and it shouldn't be confused with hate, or a slap in the face.

[saltlakecityhereicome]

I just wanted to say that I don't live in utah,but I have been there 4 times.I was in salt lake city.I'm non religious and the person I'm seeing is mormon.its a long distance relationship.but I'm african american and she's caucasian.your postings are really good and informative.I'm doing more research before I actually make my move there.but she's a real good person to me no matter what faith I am or not.you know like I know people will be people and some are more extremist than the others.but out of all you and your family have gone through,you kept your head above water while others drowned. If mormons are giving you a lot of trouble all because of your faith,its there loss.I'm not here to bash anyone or what people say in the forums.this is how we learn and communicate and differenciate.the times I have been there,I really love it,I'm from new york and I'm going to be moving there in a couple of months.no matter where I go people are people and you know like I know,kill them with kindness.eventually they will fold and come knocking on your door.I wish you and your family the best of luck in everything you do.like I said earlier I love it there in utah and can't wait to come back for good.I like your post and everyone should repond or try to respond productively.generalize there experiences like you have and try to come to some sort of conclusion.something that we can all learn to help us get through whichever problem were all facing..

[sandyrattus]

Yes, in South Salt Lake County if one does not convert to the LDS Church one is ostracised by most of the people in the ward, however, that is the way it is? It is kind of like going to Alabama and not wanting to become a Baptist. Also, in Utah being a person of color and a Democrat is generally offensive to the natives, but if you do not start any trouble with them, only a few of them will grind and ax for something bad to happen to you. The Jack Mormons don't really seem to care one way or another. At least they won't steal your garden hose. They might put a sign in your yard with a racial or ethnic insult but they are not violent people. They are just ignorant and being ignorant is not a crime. Just deal with it. There is no place that is perfect.

[irman]

Comments inserted

Originally Posted by sandyrattus

Yes, in South Salt Lake County if one does not convert to the LDS Church one is ostracised by most of the people in the ward, however, that is the way it is?
Are you *asking* or *making a statement* ?
If making a statement then I wonder why ?

It is kind of like going to Alabama and not wanting to become a Baptist.
Are from Alabama ?

Also, in Utah being a person of color and a Democrat is generally offensive to the natives,
How many Persons of Colour or Democrats do you personally know ?

but if you do not start any trouble with them, only a few of them will grind and ax for something bad to happen to you.
Aha, so as long as YOU do not start ...
Very good advice here !!

The Jack Mormons don't really seem to care one way or another. At least they won't steal your garden hose.
Is that what happens, geesj, I really was not aware of that ..
I always wondered where MY hoses went ?

They might put a sign in your yard with a racial or ethnic insult but they are not violent people.
Is that not against the law ? That is easily labeled as a *hate crime* !

They are just ignorant and being ignorant is not a crime. Just deal with it.
Uhuh, you get eventually used to everything ..
Even hanging ...

There is no place that is perfect.
Yep, you got that right !!!

From the above, I gather the following:
When you move in ..
- Tell them that you are a *jack mormon*
- Do not start a discussion
- Steal their garden hose
_ Last but not least .. DO NOT put a sign in THEIR yard !!!!


Ok, I now probably got my place reserved in hell .....
Oh well, all my friends are there ....

[markg91359]

They might put a sign in your yard with a racial or ethnic insult but they are not violent people. They are just ignorant and being ignorant is not a crime. Just deal with it.

.................................................. ................................................

Anyone putting a sign in someone's yard that contains a racial or ethnic insult had better beware of the federal Hate Crimes Law. You may end up serving time in federal prison for doing this.

In fact, acts even like sticking a "for sale" sign in someone else's yard can be construed as a hate crime if they are of a different race or religion.

Its not a good or a wise thing to do.