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I agree with Stoney, New Zealand's (and Southern Australia) fauna seems to have evolved from tropical fauna probably because of the oceanic influence and lack of large landmasses nearby. There aren't many if any places in the world where you find Ficus, Mangroves, and tropical monocot familes like Cordylines, Pandanus, and Palms into the mid 30s to 40s latitude.
These Nikau Palms, Rhopalostylis sapida, are growing naturally at 44ºS on the Chatham Islands, therefor they are the most southernly occurring palm species. These palms are hardy only to about the mid to high 20sºF, essentially making them a 9b/10a palm.
Seems they have adapted well to the local climate. I'm still surprised that with the mildness of the winters there are no native palms, unless there are. Being so isolated and with the mild winters there have to be some native species that are very well adapted to that climate and that would be broadleaf evergreen in nature.
I'm not sure if I can remember, there is a cacti species that is native to southern Oregon coast and foothills facing to west, ranging down to northern California
Seems they have adapted well to the local climate. I'm still surprised that with the mildness of the winters there are no native palms, unless there are. Being so isolated and with the mild winters there have to be some native species that are very well adapted to that climate and that would be broadleaf evergreen in nature.
I don't think anywhere looks like Australian bush, it's truly unique. It's not the lushness that shows the tropical origins of NZ bush, but the plants themselves, their form and structure. If you really want to see lush rainforest, go to the South Island. Drier parts of the South Island do look different, but lots more pines and other conifers around here and in the North Island. I keep recognizing a scene out of the last X-Men movie. It was about 10km from here and was meant to be a logging skid in the PNW ( I couldn't see my house though)
Weather in NZ is very active. Yesterday here for instance started with cumulus stratus till midday, a clearance with high cirrus. Later in the day ended up with fair weather cumulus cloud . Much of the South Island does get a lot more stratus , but around here it is the exception rather than the rule. Here we can sometimes get 3-4 continuous days of it, but only when there is a high directly above us. This morning we have scattered cirrus, lenticular clouds to the east,and a rapidly departing altocumlus ( I think, clouds can be tricky to pick sometimes) to the north. There has been towering cumulus 2-3 times in the last week and conditions could suit them today.We have a active sea breeze for six months of the year and mountains that rise sharply. Low pressure systems move rapidly,all create convection and uplift. The skies any else I have been seemed tame in comparison-unless there was a thunderstorm.
You could tell the difference between a house in Dunedin and Darwin, but Dunedin doesn't really do palms (most of the South Island doesn't either) or try to appear "warm". No Queenslanders here, but the 2nd house you showed is a very common look here, minus the palms. Driving heavy rain is the main consideration for NZ house construction
All NZ plants originally evolved in tropical environments, all have adapted to colder conditions. A tree fern or palm is an obvious example, but all other genera have the same origins. Their distant relatives are found in the Pacific islands ,Australia, SE Asia , South America. Any resemblance of here to northern forests is superficial. The PNW vegetation wasn't familiar at all, a quick glance from a distance might give a similar overall look. likewise Kauri forest and cf zone forest. A builder on a site I worked a couple of years ago was from South Carolina,we talked about this very subject. He was big on hunting and the look and feel of the bush was completely different to him. One minute in the NZ bush and you would see that.
I do realize of course that there is cumulus clouds this time of year in your location – as it is still summer, and that would not surprise me, you are only in the 40’s latitude wise, and cumulus clouds in summer occur far into Russia and Canada in the northern Hemisphere summer. I was really speaking more of the annually average sky conditions. I would think that South Island (outside of the summer months) would often have scattered stratus most of the time compared to say Brisbane or Townsville (or New Orleans or Miami here for example). One of the hallmarks of Temperate Oceanic climates is low stratus clouds frequently. My point was more that a sky that looks like this in winter is not really the norm in most higher latitude climates outside of summer (I think?):
South Florida:
As far as the look of homes…I think we are trying to spit the atom here: I understand that the is less of a difference between housing styles in the southern Hemisphere than in the Northern Hemisphere, due to a much tighter gradient of changing climate zones here. My point was that from the pics I saw on line, there appears a modest difference between the look of the average house in much of South Island and a the average hosue in Queensland. The Queenslanders look much more like a home one would find here in the deep Gulf States or Florida (off the ground/big shutters/small windows/wraparound porches...etc)... while the typical houses in many parts of South Island seem to look closer to what we have in the PNW in style (big windows, large gutters, sitting at ground level, surrounded by pines/conifers…etc). Much of the modern large windowed houses I see in many parts of South Island look very much like the modern houses one sees in the new West Coast cities in the PNW.
Here is a house for sale in Christchurch, NZ that shows an example of what I mean : http://www.bainbridgehomes.co.nz/Bainbridge-Homes-Limited-Christchurch-Houses-for-Sale.html (broken link)
On the other hand...in most tropical/subtropical houses are often elevated off the ground because of several climate issues in the tropics/deep subtropics having to do with climate (air flow, cyclones, snakes...etc). Also, there is always some attempt to actually “hide” windows, patios, entrances…etc from the sun. Here in the USA a house in Miami or New Orleans would do that, while a house in Portland or Vancouver would not. From the pictures on line, it appears there are few shutters to block the sun on homes in much of South Island, and the windows appear very large...one would never see that in the tropics. A purist might find palms in front of house with big windows without shutters a giveaway to a temperate climate - considering it’s not the norm in low latitudes. In fact, most homes in the tropics tend to have smaller windows, and orientation to wind is the key issue (looking to get a cooling breeze):
Here is Queenslander in Townsville:
Here is a house on the coast of Georgia (Tybe Island):
...and here is a house in the deep tropics in Kingston, Jamaica (15 N) :
Many house in lower latitudes seem to have a certain look.
As far as the origin of vegetation and the “look” of the zones in New Zealand - while I realize that North Island tends to look more “subtropical” the pictures of forested areas in much of South Island seem to look much less so. I think we must remember the difference between “cultivated” landscapes, reforested landscapes, areas clear-cut decades ago for farming…etc and “what is known as “climax vegetation”. That is much more true in some places that in others. Here in the USA, you really need to get far from cities/towns to find what is left (sadly) of the original climax vegetation. Though there has been a huge push to protect native flora worldwide, it is vanishing quickly. Worse, the replanting of non-native species, movement of certain plants from one climate zone/type to another is really confusing perceptions of what is “normal” and what is reforested or climax vegetation.
In the American Cfa zone - a good example that I once visited was the Ocala National Forest (Georgia/North FL). This is a good example of what the original climax vegetation looked like in the Gulf States/Florida before development/farming/clearcutting/fires...etc. In the picture posted above of NZ, you can see while the plants/palms/trees might be different from the Cfa NZ to the American Cfa zone …but the look is pretty much the same (which is no real surprise I guess since they are located in the same rough climate zone). The big difference is that the American Cf zone is hotter, sunnier, and drier that the New Zealand Cf zone, and the plant life responds slightly different:
.
Last edited by wavehunter007; 04-21-2011 at 06:13 PM..
I do realize of course that there is cumulus clouds this time of year in your location – as it is still summer, and that would not surprise me, you are only in the 40’s latitude wise, and cumulus clouds in summer occur far into Russia and Canada in the northern Hemisphere summer. I was really speaking more of the annually average sky conditions. I would think that South Island (outside of the summer months) would often have scattered stratus most of the time compared to say Brisbane or Townsville (or New Orleans or Miami here for example). One of the hallmarks of Temperate Oceanic climates is low stratus clouds frequently. My point was more that a sky that looks like this in winter is not really the norm in most higher latitude climates outside of summer (I think?):
South Florida:
As far as the look of homes…I think we are trying to spit the atom here: I understand that the is less of a difference between housing styles in the southern Hemisphere than in the Northern Hemisphere, due to a much tighter gradient of changing climate zones here. My point was that from the pics I saw on line, there appears a modest difference between the look of the average house in much of South Island and a the average hosue in Queensland. The Queenslanders look much more like a home one would find here in the deep Gulf States or Florida (off the ground/big shutters/small windows/wraparound porches...etc)... while the typical houses in many parts of South Island seem to look closer to what we have in the PNW in style (big windows, large gutters, sitting at ground level, surrounded by pines/conifers…etc). Much of the modern large windowed houses I see in many parts of South Island look very much like the modern houses one sees in the new West Coast cities in the PNW.
Here is a house for sale in Christchurch, NZ that shows an example of what I mean : Bainbridge Homes Limited - Houses for Sale - Bainbridge Homes Christchurch, architecturally designed, quality homes with a Master Build Guarantee (http://www.bainbridgehomes.co.nz/Bainbridge-Homes-Limited-Christchurch-Houses-for-Sale.html - broken link)
On the other hand...in most tropical/subtropical houses are often elevated off the ground because of several climate issues in the tropics/deep subtropics having to do with climate (air flow, cyclones, snakes...etc). Also, there is always some attempt to actually “hide” windows, patios, entrances…etc from the sun. Here in the USA a house in Miami or New Orleans would do that, while a house in Portland or Vancouver would not. From the pictures on line, it appears there are few shutters to block the sun on homes in much of South Island, and the windows appear very large...one would never see that in the tropics. A purist might find palms in front of house with big windows without shutters a giveaway to a temperate climate - considering it’s not the norm in low latitudes. In fact, most homes in the tropics tend to have smaller windows, and orientation to wind is the key issue (looking to get a cooling breeze):
Here is Queenslander in Townsville:
Here is a house on the coast of Georgia (Tybe Island):
...and here is a house in the deep tropics in Kingston, Jamaica (15 N) :
Many house in lower latitudes seem to have a certain look.
As far as the origin of vegetation and the “look” of the zones in New Zealand - while I realize that North Island tends to look more “subtropical” the pictures of forested areas in much of North Island seem to look less so. I think we must remember the difference between “cultivated” landscapes, reforested landscapes, areas clear-cut decades ago for farming…etc and “what is known as “climax vegetation”. Here in the USA, you really need to get far from cities/towns to find what is left (sadly) of the original climax vegetation. Though there has been a huge push to protect native flora worldwide, it is vanishing quickly. Worse, the replanting of non-native species, movement of certain plants from one climate zone/type to another is really confusing perceptions of what is “normal” and what is reforested or climax vegetation.
In the American Cfa zone - a good example that I once visited was the Ocala National Forest (Georgia/NFL). This is a good example of what the original climax vegetation looked like in the Gulf States/Florida before development/farming/clearcutting/fires...etc. In the picture you posted above, you can see while the plants/palms/trees might be different from the Cfa North Island to the Cfa zone in Georgia/NFL…but the look is pretty much the same (which is no real surprise I guess since they are located in the same rough climate zone):
.
Wow Ocala national forest really showed what Georgia really was before development. Thats interesting that it is much more lush, more palms, etc!
I understand the discussion well enough. I'm not buying that your "light" or "brightness" at lat 41, in a maritime climate comes anywhere near Palm Springs. Your opinion on this is completely subjective, and so is mine.
I think what Stoney63 was trying to get at was the fact that the skies in the Southern Hemisphere are much clearer because there is much less pollution than in the Northern Hemisphere because of the much lower population and landmass. This is also probably partly responsible for the higher UV indices in the Southern Hemisphere. Palm Springs while in a desert, is also not far from a city of 18,000,000 people (greater Los Angeles) which is not exactly the cleanest city around
^^ That house in Christchurch looks like it could easily fit here in Vancouver. The only big difference I see is the sky configuration. We rarely have clouds that look like that. Usually it's either dull grey skies, blue dome or puffy white clouds here.
I think what Stoney63 was trying to get at was the fact that the skies in the Southern Hemisphere are much clearer because there is much less pollution than in the Northern Hemisphere because of the much lower population and landmass. This is also probably partly responsible for the higher UV indices in the Southern Hemisphere. Palm Springs while in a desert, is also not far from a city of 18,000,000 people (greater Los Angeles) which is not exactly the cleanest city around
UV is higher as you are closer to Equator, due to the Sun angle.
UV is higher as you are closer to Equator, due to the Sun angle.
In theory yes, but other factors play into it such as pollution levels, sunshine levels and local topography. I would be willing to bet that somewhere like Chongqing, China which is in the Chinese subtropics and only has 1062 hours of sunshine a year along with heavy pollution from factories, would have a lower average UV index than somewhere higher latitude in the Southern Hemisphere like Christchurch, NZ.
I do realize of course that there is cumulus clouds this time of year in your location – as it is still summer, and that would not surprise me, you are only in the 40’s latitude wise, and cumulus clouds in summer occur far into Russia and Canada in the northern Hemisphere summer. I was really speaking more of the annually average sky conditions. I would think that South Island (outside of the summer months) would often have scattered stratus most of the time compared to say Brisbane or Townsville (or New Orleans or Miami here for example). One of the hallmarks of Temperate Oceanic climates is low stratus clouds frequently. My point was more that a sky that looks like this in winter is not really the norm in most higher latitude climates outside of summer (I think?):
South Florida:
As far as the look of homes…I think we are trying to spit the atom here: I understand that the is less of a difference between housing styles in the southern Hemisphere than in the Northern Hemisphere, due to a much tighter gradient of changing climate zones here. My point was that from the pics I saw on line, there appears a modest difference between the look of the average house in much of South Island and a the average hosue in Queensland. The Queenslanders look much more like a home one would find here in the deep Gulf States or Florida (off the ground/big shutters/small windows/wraparound porches...etc)... while the typical houses in many parts of South Island seem to look closer to what we have in the PNW in style (big windows, large gutters, sitting at ground level, surrounded by pines/conifers…etc). Much of the modern large windowed houses I see in many parts of South Island look very much like the modern houses one sees in the new West Coast cities in the PNW.
Here is a house for sale in Christchurch, NZ that shows an example of what I mean : Bainbridge Homes Limited - Houses for Sale - Bainbridge Homes Christchurch, architecturally designed, quality homes with a Master Build Guarantee (http://www.bainbridgehomes.co.nz/Bainbridge-Homes-Limited-Christchurch-Houses-for-Sale.html - broken link)
On the other hand...in most tropical/subtropical houses are often elevated off the ground because of several climate issues in the tropics/deep subtropics having to do with climate (air flow, cyclones, snakes...etc). Also, there is always some attempt to actually “hide” windows, patios, entrances…etc from the sun. Here in the USA a house in Miami or New Orleans would do that, while a house in Portland or Vancouver would not. From the pictures on line, it appears there are few shutters to block the sun on homes in much of South Island, and the windows appear very large...one would never see that in the tropics. A purist might find palms in front of house with big windows without shutters a giveaway to a temperate climate - considering it’s not the norm in low latitudes. In fact, most homes in the tropics tend to have smaller windows, and orientation to wind is the key issue (looking to get a cooling breeze):
Here is Queenslander in Townsville:
Here is a house on the coast of Georgia (Tybe Island):
...and here is a house in the deep tropics in Kingston, Jamaica (15 N) :
Many house in lower latitudes seem to have a certain look.
As far as the origin of vegetation and the “look” of the zones in New Zealand - while I realize that North Island tends to look more “subtropical” the pictures of forested areas in much of South Island seem to look much less so. I think we must remember the difference between “cultivated” landscapes, reforested landscapes, areas clear-cut decades ago for farming…etc and “what is known as “climax vegetation”. That is much more true in some places that in others. Here in the USA, you really need to get far from cities/towns to find what is left (sadly) of the original climax vegetation. Though there has been a huge push to protect native flora worldwide, it is vanishing quickly. Worse, the replanting of non-native species, movement of certain plants from one climate zone/type to another is really confusing perceptions of what is “normal” and what is reforested or climax vegetation.
In the American Cfa zone - a good example that I once visited was the Ocala National Forest (Georgia/North FL). This is a good example of what the original climax vegetation looked like in the Gulf States/Florida before development/farming/clearcutting/fires...etc. In the picture posted above of NZ, you can see while the plants/palms/trees might be different from the Cfa NZ to the American Cfa zone …but the look is pretty much the same (which is no real surprise I guess since they are located in the same rough climate zone). The big difference is that the American Cf zone is hotter, sunnier, and drier that the New Zealand Cf zone, and the plant life responds slightly different:
.
Agree with the first point, more a summer thing than winter. Still a lot of warm frontal systems that release a good amount of heat as it rains. Most of our thunder storms around here are during winter/early spring. Big puffy cumulus aren't an unusual sight during winter. When I had a winter in the PNW I got an idea of what your talking about. It didn't remind me of winter here at all. It was mostly drizzle rather than rain, grey, always damp and slow to change. Here changes rapidly, generally heavy rain over short periods, dries out quicker and is far more interesting from a weather watching perspective.
There is a big difference between houses in most of the South Island and Queensland. As I said these are places just aren't into palms or trying to create a subtropical look. As I also said, the look in the second photo(previous post) is common, but without the warm climate adaptations. Big windows are about winter sun, not summer sun. The Chch pic is a typical cookie cutter home company house- biggest floor area at the lowest cost. Chances are the owners will either build verandas at some stage, or have the curtains on the sunny side drawn a good amount of the time. I work in these sort of places all the time and despair at the lack of thought regarding orientation. The Kingston house isn't too different to a lot of older houses around here, minus the shutters
The most subtropical looking bush to me is the north and west of the South Island. The cultivated look is common in NZ and is possibly the similar look you are referring too. This is a transplanted environment and is a lot more common in the east and drier regions of the South Island. The majority of introduced species are from colder rather than warmer climates, and actually create the perception that NZ is colder than it is (in my opinion). This region has about 85% original bush cover and differs greatly
I couldn't see the pic you posted of NZ unfortunately. I'm assuming there are some deciduous trees in the pics of Ocala (good pics) and in winter would be a different look. It looks more like NZ regenerating bush rather than original forest.
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