Do palms give a false impression of Temperate Climates? (rainbow, sun, moving)
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In theory yes, but other factors play into it such as pollution levels, sunshine levels and local topography. I would be willing to bet that somewhere like Chongqing, China which is in the Chinese subtropics and only has 1062 hours of sunshine a year along with heavy pollution from factories, would have a lower average UV index than somewhere higher latitude in the Southern Hemisphere like Christchurch, NZ.
Also isn't the Earth closer to the Sun during the Southern Hemisphere's Summer?
Also isn't the Earth closer to the Sun during the Southern Hemisphere's Summer?
Yes you're right. I did forget about that point but it is an important one in regards to the UV index being stronger in the southern hemisphere summer. The Earth's perihelion is on January 3 (Southern Hemisphere summer) in which is it is 6% closer to the sun than in Aphelion on July 4 (Southern Hemisphere winter).
In regards to the clearer skies of NZ mentioned by Stoney63, I don't think the distance from the Earth to the sun would make a big difference because I think that is mainly a pollution issue.
Also isn't the Earth closer to the Sun during the Southern Hemisphere's Summer?
That's would be correct. Earth orbital circle is wider on summer/winter solistice, and for winter solistice, it is closer to sun (so southern hemisphere winter (summer temps) is closer to sun than northern hemisphere during summer solistice. The distance from sun in winter solistice is somewhere in 140 million km, while summer solistice gives the Earth the distance from summer at 149ish million km. Given with my mental calculator, southern hemisphere is closer to sun by 7 percent than N hemisphere during both summers time.
At the same time is it getting crazy? People are now planting cold hardy palms in suburban Montreal, Moscow, the Upper Midwest of the USA, Alaska, far North China...etc and going to extreme lengthes to overwinter them.
Really? I find that really rather hard to believe. Which palms are those? I thought the windmill palm was the most cold hardy in the world (from general info I'm read and seen) and that can't even make it in those climates.
I can sort of understand how coastal Alaska (an extension of the PNW's climate) might work for the maritime palms that thrive in Vancouver and the UK.
But Montreal, Moscow or Minneapolis? I've never heard of such a thing.
If there really is a palm tree that could overwinter there or in climates like the northeast, Great Lakes area in general, I'd be curious to know what it is.
I've never seen a palm grown to overwinter in Toronto. I've also never seen outdoor palms in botanical gardens in the true continental climates such as in Montreal, Niagara Falls etc.
Yes you're right. I did forget about that point but it is an important one in regards to the UV index being stronger in the southern hemisphere summer. The Earth's perihelion is on January 3 (Southern Hemisphere summer) in which is it is 6% closer to the sun than in Aphelion on July 4 (Southern Hemisphere winter).
In regards to the clearer skies of NZ mentioned by Stoney63, I don't think the distance from the Earth to the sun would make a big difference because I think that is mainly a pollution issue.
I think the higher UV index for the latitude is a combination of 3 things.
Lower ozone levels during summer,lack of airborne pollution, and closer distance to the sun during our summer.
Our max UV reading this summer(here) was 13. Through our winter, readings are much the same as the same latitude during a northern winter
Really? I find that really rather hard to believe. Which palms are those? I thought the windmill palm was the most cold hardy in the world (from general info I'm read and seen) and that can't even make it in those climates.
I can sort of understand how coastal Alaska (an extension of the PNW's climate) might work for the maritime palms that thrive in Vancouver and the UK.
But Montreal, Moscow or Minneapolis? I've never heard of such a thing.
If there really is a palm tree that could overwinter there or in climates like the northeast, Great Lakes area in general, I'd be curious to know what it is.
I've never seen a palm grown to overwinter in Toronto. I've also never seen outdoor palms in botanical gardens in the true continental climates such as in Montreal, Niagara Falls etc.
I know there's palms here and there in NYC, nothing like Vancouver though (yet), I've seen some Windmill Palms surviving in the dead of winter. There were also palms in Hurricane Harbor (Six Flags waterpark) in Central New Jersey as well as the one in Maryland, however I went during the Summer so idk if they stay there or not. These are all Zone 7/8-ish areas, the vast majority of the "Northeast" is much colder.
I've heard of Needle Palms thriving in Zone 6 with no protection but below that idk.
The Needle Palm and the Sabal Minor are supposedly the hardiest (which one is the most is disputed), followed by the Windmill Palm.
Really? I find that really rather hard to believe. Which palms are those? I thought the windmill palm was the most cold hardy in the world (from general info I'm read and seen) and that can't even make it in those climates.
I can sort of understand how coastal Alaska (an extension of the PNW's climate) might work for the maritime palms that thrive in Vancouver and the UK.
But Montreal, Moscow or Minneapolis? I've never heard of such a thing.
If there really is a palm tree that could overwinter there or in climates like the northeast, Great Lakes area in general, I'd be curious to know what it is.
I've never seen a palm grown to overwinter in Toronto. I've also never seen outdoor palms in botanical gardens in the true continental climates such as in Montreal, Niagara Falls etc.
By far I’m no expert in gardening/palms….but I’ll tell you what I have gathered up to this point:
Yes, there are palms growing in extreme southern Canada…and I don’t mean the mild BC area. One of the reasons I thought this thread would be interesting - is that there seems to be palms growing EVERYWHERE now. Because of this fact, I have been debating with myself (and others) that are we losing perspective to climates because non-native plants/trees are planted (namely palms). Whatever the answer is…there has been nothing short of an EXPLOSION of what’s termed “subtropical” gardening. As Deneb78 pointed out, I think those in Temperate latitudes like the idea of evergreens (like palms). Not everyone can travel to Miami or Hawaii in winter, so perhaps this is a way those in the Temperate zone deal winter weather or SAD.
From what I have seen on –line in a climate like Montreal or Toronto, a cold hardy palm is covered (much like a fig in some climates in winter) from December through March. The rest of the time many cold hardy palms will survive in inland temperate contentainl climates…and in climates with relatively warm summers like Toronto (where you live) - actually thrive. There is a guy called “Coconut Mike” who is growing Windmill Palms in suburban Montreal. He goes as far as building a covering over them from December to March (he has many other evergreens that he overwinters in Montreal -some with, some without protection). Whatever the case, one can only salute the moxie folks have up in your county for growing palms. I’m a bit of a gardener myself, and am too lazy to even cover tender things with burlap when unusually cold weather threatens (lol), I can’t imagine going to such lengths to protect palms, but it is quite interesting to see…and yes, you can grow palms in Montreal or Toronto if you are willing to give them some protection:
Perhaps after viewing this, you might join your countryman in the “subtropical” gardening craze
Rhapidophyllum hystrix, Needle Palm, is the hardiest palm species, although Sabal minor, Dwarf Palmetto, has survived just below zero in regions with long hot summers such as Oklahoma or Arkansas, where they are native believe it or not. The Needle Palm is just about as hardy as the Dwarf Palmetto, but seems to cope with long winters better. A few people had gotten to survive a few winters as far north as Milwaukee, Wisconsin (Zone 5b), but they croaked due to last winter's record cold winter.
I don't have any actual experience with these palms though...
By far I’m no expert in gardening/palms….but I’ll tell you what I have gathered up to this point:
Yes, there are palms growing in extreme southern Canada…and I don’t mean the mild BC area. One of the reasons I thought this thread would be interesting - is that there seems to be palms growing EVERYWHERE now. Because of this fact, I have been debating with myself (and others) that are we losing perspective to climates because non-native plants/trees are planted (namely palms). Whatever the answer is…there has been nothing short of an EXPLOSION of what’s termed “subtropical” gardening. As Deneb78 pointed out, I think those in Temperate latitudes like the idea of evergreens (like palms). Not everyone can travel to Miami or Hawaii in winter, so perhaps this is a way those in the Temperate zone deal winter weather or SAD.
From what I have seen on –line in a climate like Montreal or Toronto, a cold hardy palm is covered (much like a fig in some climates in winter) from December through March. The rest of the time many cold hardy palms will survive in inland temperate contentainl climates…and in climates with relatively warm summers like Toronto (where you live) - actually thrive. There is a guy called “Coconut Mike” who is growing Windmill Palms in suburban Montreal. He goes as far as building a covering over them from December to March (he has many other evergreens that he overwinters in Montreal -some with, some without protection). Whatever the case, one can only salute the moxie folks have up in your county for growing palms. I’m a bit of a gardener myself, and am too lazy to even cover tender things with burlap when unusually cold weather threatens (lol), I can’t imagine going to such lengths to protect palms, but it is quite interesting to see…and yes, you can grow palms in Montreal or Toronto if you are willing to give them some protection:
Perhaps after viewing this, you might join your countryman in the “subtropical” gardening craze
This is real interesting! Thanks for sharing. I had no idea that there were any palms that could make it up to anywhere near zone 5/6, even with protection. I could imagine the humid summers of Montreal or Toronto might serve them, but to go through typical 10F to 5F winters regularly.. wow.
Personally, it seems like a lot of work for many large palms from what I see in the videos and others linked to them (some videos by the same guy showed quite a lot of covers and wrapping) -- I guess some people, as you say, are willing to go to great lengths to get a piece of the subtropical landscape in their backyards.
I haven't really seen any cold-hardy palms currently marketed and sold for the garden here in Toronto myself -- maybe it's going to be the start of a fad or trend that I could be seeing more of in the years to come. Personally, I suppose to get my fix of the subtropics, I'd rather spend money and time on getting up and going somewhere warm for a vacation.
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