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Old 04-09-2020, 03:10 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
5,738 posts, read 3,516,037 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bisfbath View Post
There are quite a few Mediterranean climate definitions. None is definitive and you may prefer one over another but the one I gave also has a scientific basis.

See Distribution and peculiarity of Mediterranean ecosystems by Homer Aschmann

"The total amount of precipitation must be sufficient to support a continuous vegetative cover on all but the most rocky sites. On the other hand it should be insufficient to support a mesophytic arboreal growth except where phreatophytes have access to groundwater."

In terms of temperature upper limit:- "The mediterranean climate must have a winter, which is readily defined as an average temperature below 15C." And lower limit "we can accept as a boundary that the hours per year at which the temperature at weather stations height falls below freezing should not exceed 3 percent of the total".

"The Koppen climate classification with its Cs or olive climate defining the mediterranean climatic region (Koppen and Geiger, 1936) is well known. An examination of station data will show that the mediterranean climate as defined here is somewhat more restricted in distribution. In particular, northerly and interior areas in North America and Eurasia such as the Oregon and Washington coast and the Columbia Plateaux prove to be too wet and too cold, respectively, supporting the impressions of the average naive observer. The significant presence of broadleafed, deciduous forest or a dense coniferous one is incongruous to the mediterranean landscape".
Thanks.

I'm no ecologist but I still think that approach is far too restrictive.

We know there are regions in the world whose climate genetics are defined by winter rain and summer drought as a result of exposure to mid-latitude cyclones and subtropical anticyclones in the respective seasons. Portland, Seattle, and Victoria are examples; Perth, Los Angeles, and Rome are others. London and Paris do not share these genetics. Moreover, the flora around Portland, Seattle, and Victoria reflects a climate lineage distinct from that of Paris and London.


Arbutus menziesii 3208s
Walter Siegmund / CC BY-SA (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0)
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Old 08-25-2020, 03:43 PM
 
Location: Las Cruces NM
155 posts, read 150,038 times
Reputation: 183
Default Ice Age rehash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isleofpalms85 View Post
Indianapolis should be reclassified as hemiboreal instead of hot summer continental, at least it will be soon if Millennialurbanists outlandish claims about the Midwest becoming subarctic are to be believed.
I hadn't heard that one! Is it based on 2 recent colder-than-average winters (latest term the "polar vortex"), or the most recent Ice Age and it's southern glacial limits?
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Old 08-25-2020, 03:50 PM
 
Location: Las Cruces NM
155 posts, read 150,038 times
Reputation: 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bisfbath View Post
Perhaps according to Koppen but not according to the ecological requirements I mentioned above.
That seems good when combining climate and ecology / life forms, and it's a question in the back of my mind. Are there better sources to research the landforms and vegetative cover further?

Though I'm not sure the mountains around the SF Bay Area where one of my sisters lives, Santa Cruz County, is anything but Mediterranean (or better, "Summer-Dry") though it's redwood-doug fir-madrone-live oak forest with 50 inches average annual rainfall. That's wetter than forested Portland, but much longer dry periods.

But it's still forest.
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Old 08-25-2020, 03:56 PM
 
Location: Las Cruces NM
155 posts, read 150,038 times
Reputation: 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed's Mountain View Post
Portland and Seattle are quite clearly Mediterranean, not sure why someone would be so hell-bent on switching them to oceanic. Clearly somebody has an axe to grind.
I agree, quite the axe to grind!

As to Honolulu, why not be open to Koppen's system missing that glaring example of a dry tropical climate type, since it never freezes or even gets close? (unlike Miami, which gets light freezes rarely and chilly 35-40 lows many winter, yet real estate and Koppen's system says are tropical!)

Plus, I'm fairly sure the coastal Arabian peninsula is arid, with a tropical temperature regime...no freezes, always warm to very hot.

So: Honolulu is a semi-arid tropical climate, and the UAE is an arid tropical climate.
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Old 08-25-2020, 04:02 PM
 
Location: Las Cruces NM
155 posts, read 150,038 times
Reputation: 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bisfbath View Post
There are quite a few Mediterranean climate definitions. None is definitive and you may prefer one over another but the one I gave also has a scientific basis.

See Distribution and peculiarity of Mediterranean ecosystems by Homer Aschmann

"The total amount of precipitation must be sufficient to support a continuous vegetative cover on all but the most rocky sites. On the other hand it should be insufficient to support a mesophytic arboreal growth except where phreatophytes have access to groundwater."

In terms of temperature upper limit:- "The mediterranean climate must have a winter, which is readily defined as an average temperature below 15C." And lower limit "we can accept as a boundary that the hours per year at which the temperature at weather stations height falls below freezing should not exceed 3 percent of the total".

"The Koppen climate classification with its Cs or olive climate defining the mediterranean climatic region (Koppen and Geiger, 1936) is well known. An examination of station data will show that the mediterranean climate as defined here is somewhat more restricted in distribution. In particular, northerly and interior areas in North America and Eurasia such as the Oregon and Washington coast and the Columbia Plateaux prove to be too wet and too cold, respectively, supporting the impressions of the average naive observer. The significant presence of broadleafed, deciduous forest or a dense coniferous one is incongruous to the mediterranean landscape".

Thanks for the above sources. I'll read up on those some. Though the forest of Santa Cruz Co, California, sure seem much warmer of a climate all year than Portland, are thick forest in most areas, and have a very dry summer currently under major wildfire encroachment again.

Not a Cape Town or San Diego in dryness, but still.

I think Perth AU is also wetter, though not like the Santa Cruz Mtns.
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Old 08-25-2020, 04:09 PM
 
Location: Lake Huron Shores
2,227 posts, read 1,403,917 times
Reputation: 1758
All cities east of the Rockies and north of the blue ridge mountains are continental climates. NYC, Louisville, and St. Louis are not sub tropical when you can expect nights below freezing from November till April. Palms will die in that weather. The furthest north I’ve seen palms were in Raleigh. North of that they won’t survive.
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Old 08-27-2020, 11:03 PM
 
Location: Etobicoke
1,548 posts, read 871,176 times
Reputation: 993
Quote:
Originally Posted by nmdesert View Post
Koppen needs help, and Trewartha or Geiger aren't enough help nor are there detailed maps to tell much. First, split "subtropical" into warm temperate and subtropical, since there's a notable difference in winter hard freezes and summer heat extremes in the desert or east.

Ignoring that split, here's some places in my region that I plugged climate data into the more revised Koppen formulas (32F is the division of BW/S and w/k, not an annual mean >64.4F). I get this:

BWh
El Paso
Las Cruces
Albuquerque (bordering on BSh and less-so on BWk)
Roswell NM (bordering on BSh)

BSh
Amarillo (bordering on BSk)
Midland-Odessa (bordering on BWh)

Csb
Portland OR
Seattle (bordering on Cfb)

I tried modifying those locales and a few more on another online website twice, but someone changes them right back. Including that same person's belief that Honolulu is BSh and not tropical semi-arid or savannah!
I agree that El Paso and Las Cruces are more BWh than BWk.
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