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Which site is that? One in the western suburbs? I think the figure I recall is in the 2400s, and I've seen something like 2500 for Chicago, but yes, I was just going on quoted figures, the reality might be different. I've also compared sunshine hour data to the number of clear/cloudy days; but that too is kind of subjective and the BOM and NOAA seem to use different methods. From comparing the number of clear/cloudy/partly cloudy days it actually seems the Eastern US should indeed be a bit less sunny than the sunshine hour totals suggest. 3000 hours a year for somewhere like Columbia, SC always seemed a touch high to me, considering they have quite a few more 'cloudy' days than Perth which gets about the same amount of sun.
The BOM averages probably don't really reflect the average 'impression' of sunniness one gets in Australian cities these days either. In the past 10 years Perth has probably cracked the 3200 hour mark more than a few times. We've had years with as few as 60 raindays, well below the 119 long-term average. The 30 year average would probably also suggest something lower.
You cannot use those definitions of the sky conditions for a day to compare sunshine hours. The vast, vast majority of days in S. Florida for instance are Pt. Cloudy. Do you think Miami does not get those sunshine hours? The vast majority of our days here in the mid-Atlantic are Pt. Cloudy, not Clear, or Cloudy. All countries, or at least the industrialized nations, measure sunshine hours, and they do it using machines, and not checking the sky at 9:00am and 3:00pm. And even the BOM of Australia considers a day clear even if it has 2/8th's of the sky cloudy. This from the BOM:
"A clear day is recorded when the mean of the 9 am and 3 pm cloud observations is less than or equal to 2 oktas." So how bout a day where it is totally cloudy by 3:30pm? I guess Australia considers that clear. Sunshine hours is the only way. I'll bet the majority of Columbia's Pt. Cloudy days were like 70% sun, especially with those sunshine hours.
It is my intention as stated before to talk to a British expert - I will get back on that in due course. I'm happy to recant if that doesn't give me anything to proceed from.
I think this whole sunshine thing is being overblown. The data in Australia, NZ and elsewhere used a machine that was not foolproof. Human observers filled in the blanks and also read the cards. The US does not count "visible" sunshine either, from what I read.
As far as our sunshine being underwhelming by your standards, maybe that has to do with the ozone being naturally thinner in the S. Hemisphere.
Trust me, some fair haired white skinned Australian sitting on our beaches in summer all day with no sunscreen on will fry. I happen to live in an area of the US with a lot of Italian Americans. I've grown up with these guys and have gone to the beach with them my whole life. In the beginning of summer, even with their olive skin, they will get sunburned if laying on the beach all day without sun screen. Once they get a tan, they don't need as much. And from what I've seen, they look a hell of a lot darker than those 90% of Aussies that hail from the British Isles. But this notion that our sun at latitude 40N is somehow weak, and that NZ's and Aussies can walk around the US all summer with no sunscreen on, c'mon.
I find that bit about the deserts of the US SW hard to believe. I've read quite a few travel blogs of Aussies in the desert SW, and they certainly do go on about the blazing sunshine and the heat.
But this notion that our sun at latitude 40N is somehow weak, and that NZ's and Aussies can walk around the US all summer with no sunscreen on, c'mon.
I find that bit about the deserts of the US SW hard to believe. I've read quite a few travel blogs of Aussies in the desert SW, and they certainly do go on about the blazing sunshine and the heat.
I found it hard to believe as well, but several people have adamantly given me the same story. It may reflect conditions closer to those in LA than in the deep desert, of course.
Yes, it is true that there are plenty of fair-skinned Australians - particularly the reddish-toned Celt types with Scottish or Irish ancestry - who would fry in the circumstances you cite - as indeed they do in Australia with a vengeance, if they're not careful. I have a sister-in-law originally from the coast south of Brisbane, and despite being very careful she had to have several dangerous marks removed from facial skin. "Joe90" has made a couple of comments on the nature of full summer sun at our latitudes (around 41S in both cases).
BTW, I have emailed my UK contact on the measurement subject and await a reply.
On the theme of your very powerful sun down under, vs our weak one, I'm thinking that maybe your S-C machines register that magical 120 Watt/sq. m number even thru a cloudy sky. Maybe it is your sunshine hours that are skewed way up by your thin ozone layer. Me thinks we need a correction factor to even out the ozone layer. Lol.
You cannot use those definitions of the sky conditions for a day to compare sunshine hours. The vast, vast majority of days in S. Florida for instance are Pt. Cloudy. Do you think Miami does not get those sunshine hours? The vast majority of our days here in the mid-Atlantic are Pt. Cloudy, not Clear, or Cloudy.
I still think measuring clear, partly cloudy and cloudy days is interesting. A climate with similar sunshine hours but the days split between clear and cloudy with partly cloudy rather than more partly cloudy days could feel very different.
Looks like a lot upstate NY cities record fewer clear days than Portland, OR even though they have somewhat higher sunshine numbers. But upstate NY cities have more partly cloudy days and less cloudy days. I'd choose the climate with less clear and cloudy days and more partly cloudy days.
I still think measuring clear, partly cloudy and cloudy days is interesting. A climate with similar sunshine hours but the days split between clear and cloudy with partly cloudy rather than more partly cloudy days could feel very different.
Looks like a lot upstate NY cities record fewer clear days than Portland, OR even though they have somewhat higher sunshine numbers. But upstate NY cities have more partly cloudy days and less cloudy days. I'd choose the climate with less clear and cloudy days and more partly cloudy days.
I agree they could feel different. But remember, when are they observing?
If it is an observation in the morning and afternoon, and both readings are clear, it doesn't really mean an entirely clear day. Take a look at Pt. Cloudy days on the Miami NWS site. They have loads of P. Cloudy days, but to me, visiting there it feels really sunny. The daily weather almanac in our local paper always reports the previous days percent of sunshine, for example 80% clear with 20% clouds. That is more factual than P. Cloudy, which is how it would have been defined the other way.
On the theme of your very powerful sun down under, vs our weak one, I'm thinking that maybe your S-C machines register that magical 120 Watt/sq. m number even thru a cloudy sky. Maybe it is your sunshine hours that are skewed way up by your thin ozone layer. Me thinks we need a correction factor to even out the ozone layer. Lol.
While we are waiting, this paper appears to say (8.2.4) that the F-F trigger was at about 85 Watt/sqm rather than 120.
I have never made claims that the C-S method is desirable - it was difficult to maintain consistency to say the least, just that its readings in general would come out lower than with US methods. I also have a recollection now that the expert to whom I am addressing my question stated that the C-S could need values as high as 260 in some circumstances. The 120 presumably represents an ideal average status. This would suggest that C-S sites were not generous with their readings overall.
I agree they could feel different. But remember, when are they observing?
If it is an observation in the morning and afternoon, and both readings are clear, it doesn't really mean an entirely clear day. Take a look at Pt. Cloudy days on the Miami NWS site. They have loads of P. Cloudy days, but to me, visiting there it feels really sunny. The daily weather almanac in our local paper always reports the previous days percent of sunshine, for example 80% clear with 20% clouds. That is more factual than P. Cloudy, which is how it would have been defined the other way.
Personally I don't care how it's distributed, but true blue-dome days have a magic of their own to me.
I found it hard to believe as well, but several people have adamantly given me the same story. It may reflect conditions closer to those in LA than in the deep desert, of course.
Yes, it is true that there are plenty of fair-skinned Australians - particularly the reddish-toned Celt types with Scottish or Irish ancestry - who would fry in the circumstances you cite - as indeed they do in Australia with a vengeance, if they're not careful. I have a sister-in-law originally from the coast south of Brisbane, and despite being very careful she had to have several dangerous marks removed from facial skin. "Joe90" has made a couple of comments on the nature of full summer sun at our latitudes (around 41S in both cases).
BTW, I have emailed my UK contact on the measurement subject and await a reply.
I remember thinking the sun lacked bite in SoCal (May- July), and that was at a time that I wasn't aware of UVI differences. The thought occurred to me at the time, that was what made California such a great climate. I can't comment on the US any further east than Reno though.
Working outdoors most of my working life has given me a healthy respect for the sun here. I've seen plenty of people (local and foreign) on orchards I work on, that have had to take time off work from serious sun burn. In the worst cases (two I can think of)an overnight hospital stay was needed. Also workers from abroad, including hotter, sunnier climes comment frequently on the sun- it's crazy, insane etc. I think the lowish temps can be misleading.
It's not lying on beaches that present the biggest problem here - something that most people take precaution with. It's 10 -20 minutes doing something outside, when you've forgotten your hat or long sleeved shirt , on the wrong sort of day.
Personally I don't care how it's distributed, but true blue-dome days have a magic of their own to me.
Alas, the Volcano/Lava Bar is no more, thanks to the earthquake. It looks like mid October to me.
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