What is a subtropical climate? (Lexington, snowfall, hot, warm)
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I was getting at the fact they are very cold tolerant, one of the most cold hardy palms there is... Oklahoma may have hot summers, but they get very cold winters. If a palm can grow there or in Sweden it isn't a very "subtropical" plant is it...
I don't see why it wouldn't be a subtropical species. Much of its cold tolerance can be attributed to its subterranean trunk, which is an environmental adaptation. And I don't agree with the idea that subtropical plants can't be relatively cold tolerant, I mean, why not?
They'd probably struggle in Sweden, no real heat there.
Okay. I meant your stereotypical four season climate (e.g. Hartford, CT).
Avg. temp West Palm Beach, FL: 75.4 F
Avg. temp Hartford, CT: 50.5 F
Avg. temp Raleigh, NC: 60.8 F
60.8 is closer to 50.5 than 75.4, so Raleigh is not subtropical.
Is anyone even arguing over whether or not Houston or any other gulf coast location is subtropical?
I thought people were arguing over the region from US Hwy 84 to I-40 or so. I live near you and disagree with you over our location's subtropicalness. So I already agreed with asagi that his area is subtropical. And I'll grant smithgn that Columbia, SC does have some subtropical characteristics.
Really??? Why so. Hartford Connecticut is considered borderline subtropical by koppen. Use a more temperate climate. So now if a climate can or can't grow citrus determines if it's subtropical or not? Give me one reason why raleigh isn't subtropical. I don't think cambium would agree Hartford Connecticut and raleigh are the same. Whatever you guys say. Why aren't scientists arguing about our subtropicality? Only seems you guys are. Maybe because it's pointless and they understand what the southeast is. And it certainly is not a dead humid continental wasteland as you guys say.
I was getting at the fact they are very cold tolerant, one of the most cold hardy palms there is... Oklahoma may have hot summers, but they get very cold winters. If a palm can grow there or in Sweden it isn't a very "subtropical" plant is it...
Yep, let's just ignore how warm the rest of the year is and focus on a few extreme days in winter. I guess alligators are not a subtropical animal and should survive in Sweden too?
I don't see why it wouldn't be a subtropical species. Much of its cold tolerance can be attributed to its subterranean trunk, which is an environmental adaptation. And I don't agree with the idea that subtropical plants can't be relatively cold tolerant, I mean, why not?
They'd probably struggle in Sweden, no real heat there.
It doesn't need to be that hot for Sabal minor. My summer is cooler than somewhere like Gothenburg, and I'm finding S minor grow at a moderately quick pace.
I still don't see them surviving long term in Sweden though.
Really??? Why so. Hartford Connecticut is considered borderline subtropical by koppen. Use a more temperate climate. So now if a climate can or can't grow citrus determines if it's subtropical or not? Give me one reason why raleigh isn't subtropical. I don't think cambium would agree Hartford Connecticut and raleigh are the same. Whatever you guys say. Why aren't scientists arguing about our subtropicality? Only seems you guys are. Maybe because it's pointless and they understand what the southeast is. And it certainly is not a dead humid continental wasteland as you guys say.
a. I never said Hartford and Raleigh are the same. Just more similar than Raleigh and West Palm Beach. In terms of average temperature Raleigh is midway between St. Augustine, FL and Hartford, CT, but different from both.
b. I don't think cambium would agree with his climate being considered subtropical (which you seem to be claiming). Do you think places that can have snow cover for >1 month should be considered subtropical?
c. It really depends on how you define dead. I'm sure we have more plant and animal life than Pennsylvania in winter but things are mostly dead. I mean, does this look particularly alive?
Reasons why Raleigh isn't subtropical:
1. Mostly dead vegetation in winter
2. Little to no insect activity in winter
3. Measurable snow almost every year
4. Ice days almost every year
5. Average of 33 hard freezes (below 28 F) per year
Just to be clear, I still think that Atlanta is more subtropical than it is continental, and if it were not for the unstable winters it would definitely 100% be subtropical. And for Raleigh I think it's winter lows are just a bit too low but I still consider it borderline. All I was saying in my earlier posts is that these cities have a nearly 0% of being dominated by broadleaf plants, maybe it can get to 10% coverage but I don't ever seeing it comprising more than 50%. That being said I find it kind of boring now discussing only the american SE, so I will give a list of some Cfa climates from around the world and we can discuss if they should or shouldn't be labeled as such.
Just to be clear, I still think that Atlanta is more subtropical than it is continental, and if it were not for the unstable winters it would definitely 100% be subtropical. And for Raleigh I think it's winter lows are just a bit too low but I still consider it borderline. All I was saying in my earlier posts is that these cities have a nearly 0% of being dominated by broadleaf plants, maybe it can get to 10% coverage but I don't ever seeing it comprising more than 50%. That being said I find it kind of boring now discussing only the american SE, so I will give a list of some Cfa climates from around the world and we can discuss if they should or shouldn't be labeled as such.
Sydney without a doubt. Certainly more than New Orleans if you ask me. Buenos Airies again more than New Orleans. No matter what people say I do think a few extreme days each winter lessen its subtropicalness. Continental climates stink imo.
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Originally Posted by grega94
Just to be clear, I still think that Atlanta is more subtropical than it is continental, and if it were not for the unstable winters it would definitely 100% be subtropical. And for Raleigh I think it's winter lows are just a bit too low but I still consider it borderline. All I was saying in my earlier posts is that these cities have a nearly 0% of being dominated by broadleaf plants, maybe it can get to 10% coverage but I don't ever seeing it comprising more than 50%. That being said I find it kind of boring now discussing only the american SE, so I will give a list of some Cfa climates from around the world and we can discuss if they should or shouldn't be labeled as such.
a. I never said Hartford and Raleigh are the same. Just more similar than Raleigh and West Palm Beach. In terms of average temperature Raleigh is midway between St. Augustine, FL and Hartford, CT, but different from both.
b. I don't think cambium would agree with his climate being considered subtropical (which you seem to be claiming). Do you think places that can have snow cover for >1 month should be considered subtropical?
c. It really depends on how you define dead. I'm sure we have more plant and animal life than Pennsylvania in winter but things are mostly dead. I mean, does this look particularly alive?
Reasons why Raleigh isn't subtropical:
1. Mostly dead vegetation in winter
2. Little to no insect activity in winter
3. Measurable snow almost every year
4. Ice days almost every year
5. Average of 33 hard freezes (below 28 F) per year
Reasons why Raleigh is subtropical: ( not ranked in any particular order)
1. Warm winter days
2. Tropical summers
3. 5 months with a mean of 68 degrees, so 5 months out of the year are purely tropical and some Aprils and Octobers pass as tropical too, so you have a possible of 7 months a year of tropical weather and your guaranteed most years 5 months at least.
4.Live vegetation, not just dead
5. Insect activity still exists in winter
6. Thunderstorms
7. Hurricanes affect the area and they are tropical types of storms
8. Average of 40 or more days of 90 and above a year
9. Zone 8A climate, that has been zone 9a during some winters, and plenty of years that were 8B not just for the winter but the whole year
10.Animal activity still exists in winter
11.Rarely snows more than 6 inches in a winter and most years only 3-4 inches
12. Warm winter nights are possible every winter
13. Mean of 227 days of 68 degrees and above for the 2000-2016 period
14. Coldest month has a mean of 41
15. Mean of 8 days per winter that reach 70 or above for the 2000-2016 period, versus an average of 3 ice days a year, and when I lower the threshold to 68 degrees on now data the mean is 12 days per winter of 68 or above.
16. Coldest winter month averages 51 for high and 31 for low
17.A 207 day growing season
18. Mean of 0 days per year that drop below 10 degrees for the 2000-2016 period, although we have done so 7 times in the past 16 years.
19. Mean of 8 nights of 20 and below
20. Average lowest temp is 12 and most years it is a bit warmer than that, this year it was 15
Sydney without a doubt. Certainly more than New Orleans if you ask me. Buenos Airies again more than New Orleans. No matter what people say I do think a few extreme days each winter lessen its subtropicalness. Continental climates stink imo.
Heck no, it has oceanic summers not subtropical/tropical summers. Sydney and subtropical climates with cool summers need to be classified as something else, just like everyone agrees places with cooler winters for a subtropical climate should be classified differently. I still think its subtropical 100% though. just not like other subtropical climates with true hot tropical summers.
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