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One can argue that Canada is much more stable in its identity in terms of climate and whatnot instead of zones 6 and 7 in particular in America, the battle zones so to speak. These areas are actually worse than Canada because it's a deceiving climate zone to say the least. Too warm for regular snow cover and too cold for real subtropical vegetation, but some things are able to grow anyways: magnolias, American mango(paw-paw) and ornamental bananas.
I'd say the real subtropics could start around the Chesapeake Bay Area, where a lot of zone 8 winters can be found, despite the classification being zone 7(probably changed to 8 by now lol, since the government doesn't care to change it for some reason). That's another thing to note, is that, there isn't a solid map that notes of how things have changed, which I'd say that the Chesapeake Bay Area and Delmarva could probably have quite a bit of zone 8 in there.
Myrtle Beach, at least to my attestation, has gotten as far low as 25F, but to note as well, that many hard frost nights can still occur back-to-back in the span of one particular week in late January, but Myrtle Beach is really subtropical, Ofc, you cannot call a place like that as temperate as Ohio or upstate NY just because there are pines there; the pines look fundamentally different anyways, I know that because I study plants.
Trewartha's definition starts around the lower end of the Chesapeake Bay, which is where more subtropical plants are planted such as palmettos. Plus, live oaks and Spanish Moss start growing around the Hampton Roads area.
I agree, Trewartha called this area oceanic but that term does not capture the climate of the upper south/lower midwest.
The pines of the southeast are subtropical, they all have those big deep green needles just like pines you see in the tropics. Pinus caribaea(caribbean pine) is indistinguishable from slash or longleaf pines.
The eastern white pine which is more typical of Ohio or New York looks quite different, it looks more like a spruce. Pines seem to be adapted to a wide range of climates rather than just cold adapted.
There's a city in the Philippines, Baguio, that is technically a tropical monsoonal climate(although it is close to subtropical highland) that is filled with pine trees.
Yes, the Southern Pine has a very warm look to me, quite different from cold-weather pines (totally subjective statement I know).
There are also some great examples of subtropical and tropical conifers in the Southern Hemisphere. Not technically pines but closely related. Everybody knows about the Norfolk Island Pine but the most stunning example in my mind is the Bunya Pine (Araucaria bidwillii). Its natural distribution is subtropical and tropical Queensland. They are huge majestic trees and can live up to 1000 years.
Yes, the Southern Pine has a very warm look to me, quite different from cold-weather pines (totally subjective statement I know).
There are also some great examples of subtropical and tropical conifers in the Southern Hemisphere. Not technically pines but closely related. Everybody knows about the Norfolk Island Pine but the most stunning example in my mind is the Bunya Pine (Araucaria bidwillii). Its natural distribution is subtropical and tropical Queensland. They are huge majestic trees and can live up to 1000 years.
And no, I'm not trying to one-up you, just supporting your point that conifers are native to warm places too.
I'm not sure about the "pine" species in the Southern Hemisphere, regarding their laurophyll or sclerophyll characteristics. But, for sure, the preponderance of pine in much of the Southern US is a result of the cold snaps. Humid subtropical/tropical vegetation with sufficiently wet environments are to be classic for laurophyll evergreen species, just like the forests in northern Argentina/coastal Brazil (i.e. Atlantic Forest) as well as southerly areas of East Asia (i.e. southern China, southern Japan, Taiwan, etc and southwards).
In this case, the link is not direct, since the pines, as mentioned, do have warm-climate affinities. Instead, the cold incursions have accompanying sheer dryness (i.e. hence the drastic dewpoint depressions after the fronts), introducing aridity onto an otherwise humid subtropical South. With enough warmth and dryness, you can get wildfires going (i.e. Florida), but even with sustained cold, the dryness is still such that plants would have to minimize water loss in some way (especially considering winds with the fronts).
As a result, a lot of the plants in the Southern US, like the live oak or pines, can be either sclerophyll or have have sclerophyll characteristics (i.e. semi-sclerophyll). It's no wonder, everywhere else in the humid subtropics/tropics that have pines, its all up in the mountains (i.e. Philippines), or there are some sort of harsh dry seasons (i.e. w/ wildfires). With the Caribbean Pine, that seems to be a relic from the Ice Age on the Bahamas, and even there, their presence is only maintained where there are sufficient wildfires — suppression of fires leads to evergreen broadleaf forest on those islands. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caribbean_pine#Ecology
Yes, the Southern Pine has a very warm look to me, quite different from cold-weather pines (totally subjective statement I know).
There are also some great examples of subtropical and tropical conifers in the Southern Hemisphere. Not technically pines but closely related. Everybody knows about the Norfolk Island Pine but the most stunning example in my mind is the Bunya Pine (Araucaria bidwillii). Its natural distribution is subtropical and tropical Queensland. They are huge majestic trees and can live up to 1000 years.
A Bunya Araucaria bidwillii cone
Rodmunch99, CC BY-SA 3.0 <https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0>, via Wikimedia Commons
And no, I'm not trying to one-up you, just supporting your point that conifers are native to warm places too.
Yep, and then their southern cousins, the Araucara Aracauna look much more the cold temperate they belong
Quote:
Originally Posted by kemahkami
I'm not sure about the "pine" species in the Southern Hemisphere, regarding their laurophyll or sclerophyll characteristics. But, for sure, the preponderance of pine in much of the Southern US is a result of the cold snaps. Humid subtropical/tropical vegetation with sufficiently wet environments are to be classic for laurophyll evergreen species, just like the forests in northern Argentina/coastal Brazil (i.e. Atlantic Forest) as well as southerly areas of East Asia (i.e. southern China, southern Japan, Taiwan, etc and southwards).
In this case, the link is not direct, since the pines, as mentioned, do have warm-climate affinities. Instead, the cold incursions have accompanying sheer dryness (i.e. hence the drastic dewpoint depressions after the fronts), introducing aridity onto an otherwise humid subtropical South. With enough warmth and dryness, you can get wildfires going (i.e. Florida), but even with sustained cold, the dryness is still such that plants would have to minimize water loss in some way (especially considering winds with the fronts).
As a result, a lot of the plants in the Southern US, like the live oak or pines, can be either sclerophyll or have have sclerophyll characteristics (i.e. semi-sclerophyll). It's no wonder, everywhere else in the humid subtropics/tropics that have pines, its all up in the mountains (i.e. Philippines), or there are some sort of harsh dry seasons (i.e. w/ wildfires). With the Caribbean Pine, that seems to be a relic from the Ice Age on the Bahamas, and even there, their presence is only maintained where there are sufficient wildfires — suppression of fires leads to evergreen broadleaf forest on those islands. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caribbean_pine#Ecology
So, what about the pines of Honduras or Dominican Republic, do those countries have cold snaps?
You make the typical mistake, wich is relate climate types to entire genus or families of flora, when that kind of relationship only verifies at a single species level, at most.
I'm not sure about the "pine" species in the Southern Hemisphere, regarding their laurophyll or sclerophyll characteristics. But, for sure, the preponderance of pine in much of the Southern US is a result of the cold snaps. Humid subtropical/tropical vegetation with sufficiently wet environments are to be classic for laurophyll evergreen species, just like the forests in northern Argentina/coastal Brazil (i.e. Atlantic Forest) as well as southerly areas of East Asia (i.e. southern China,
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The southern extent of the Atlantic Forest only reaches Misiones and the northernmost part of Corrientes north of ~27 degrees in Argentina and the same for Rio Grande do Sul.
The Indochinese subtropical broadleaf forest only reaches Fujian and southern Guizhou at its northernmost extent, ~26 degrees latitude.
So the comparisons are not really relevant to most of the southern US?
Yep, and then their southern cousins, the Araucara Aracauna look much more the cold temperate they belong
So, what about the pines of Honduras or Dominican Republic, do those countries have cold snaps?
You make the typical mistake, wich is relate climate types to entire genus or families of flora, when that kind of relationship only verifies at a single species level, at most.
Great photos - I really want to ski powder through those Araucaras one day.
Get them here, although called Monkey Puzzle - not as common as Norfolks though.
So, what about the pines of Honduras or Dominican Republic, do those countries have cold snaps?
You make the typical mistake, wich is relate climate types to entire genus or families of flora, when that kind of relationship only verifies at a single species level, at most.
The pines in Honduras and the Dominican Republic are all up in the mountains. As I said before.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asagi
The southern extent of the Atlantic Forest only reaches Misiones and the northernmost part of Corrientes north of ~27 degrees in Argentina and the same for Rio Grande do Sul.
The Indochinese subtropical broadleaf forest only reaches Fujian and southern Guizhou at its northernmost extent, ~26 degrees latitude.
So the comparisons are not really relevant to most of the southern US?
Broadleaf evergreen forest stretches further north in Asia, just not grouped as Indochinese. These farther north territories include the southern Korean Peninsula, Japan, as well as China up to the Yangtze (i.e. just off Ningbo).
South America has the climate to support broadleaf evergreen forest all the way down Argentina. Certain qualities in the soil regarding parts of that country are what lead to the Pampas grasslands - still more subtropical than anything in the USA. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytolacca_dioica
Do you know anything about Plantation agriculture?
It depends what you mean by planation agriculture - not a term used here, but I grew up with tobacco, and have been involved with orchards for a long time.
...... and I've done a bit of "bush plantation", back in the day
The pines in Honduras and the Dominican Republic are all up in the mountains. As I said before.
Broadleaf evergreen forest stretches further north in Asia, just not grouped as Indochinese. These farther north territories include the southern Korean Peninsula, Japan, as well as China up to the Yangtze (i.e. just off Ningbo).
South America has the climate to support broadleaf evergreen forest all the way down Argentina. Certain qualities in the soil regarding parts of that country are what lead to the Pampas grasslands - still more subtropical than anything in the USA. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytolacca_dioica
The forest you mentioned hugs the coast of S Korea at ~33 degrees and south of the Yangtze is only around 31 degrees, not all that impressive. That's roughly the distribution of your precious laurel Cinnamomum camphora. Where are the palm trees? Yunnan, Guangxi, and Guangzhou are home to many native palms but not many found north of Guizhou and Fujian. Just Trachycarpus?
Red Bay (same genus as avocado) makes it all the way up the SE coast into extreme southeastern Virginia at 36 degrees. Plenty of other evergreen trees in the south/se coast too i.e Gordonia lasianthus, Prunus caroliniana, Myrica spp., Magnolia spp., and several species of palm: Sabal palmetto, Sabal minor, Sabal x brazoriensis, Sereona repens, and Rhapidophyllum hystrix.
The Pampa more subtropical than anything in the USA? Forget Hawaii, South Florida has tropical broadleaf forest . Tropical species (e.g. Ficus aurea) from the Caribbean make it along the immediate coast to about 29 degrees just south of Daytona Beach.
Pampas region is indeed subtropical but gets noticeably drier and drier as one moves inland and south, becomes semi-arid. The core area from Brazil to Argentina is really not that large when compared with the subtropical zones of the US and China. South Africa and Australia’s zones are even smaller and more fragmented. When Koeppen designed the Cfa zone, I have no doubt the American climate was exactly what he had in mind
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on Flickr, CC BY 2.0 <https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0>, via Wikimedia Commons
. Tropical species (e.g. Ficus aurea) from the Caribbean make it along the immediate coast to about 29 degrees just south of Daytona Beach.
