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It seems to me that subtropical Texas is a perfectly valid subject in a thread about the subtropical southeast. Certainly it came up in conversation earlier in the thread and there were no objections at the time--even you had a thing or two to say about it.
My assertion is that a subtropical climate that endures such winter destruction while at the same time being insufferably hot the rest of the year is an inferior subtropical climate.
"Inferior"
But is South Padre "not a true subtropical climate"? All of the recent discussion is centered on where subtropical begins and ends.
It either is a subtropical climate or it isn't. Do you have any argument or compelling thought beyond "it's hot as hell and gets freezes sometimes"?
Same latitude in coastal China is insufferably hot as well and can't even grow a decent coconut palm for any amount of time. Must be inferior as well. The few in Hong Kong look like crap. Even Haikou looks worse than Miami. Inferior inferior inferior
Is the climate of the southeast really an inferior/not a true subtropical climate?
I hear a lot on this forum that since the southeastern winters tend to be unstable and have cold breezes that the southeast is either an "inferior" subtropical climate or "not a true" subtropical climate
but I also hear people say on this forum that the Mediterranean has warmer winters than the south (I'm pretty sure they don't), Narrow their definition of "subtropical" to basically the transition zone between subtropical and tropical, and I've even heard on a reddit post that someone heard someone on here say that the isles of scilly, which rarely get warm and are oceanic according to köppen, are subtropical while the American southeast isn't
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asagi
But is South Padre "not a true subtropical climate"? All of the recent discussion is centered on where subtropical begins and ends.
South Padre Island is 100% subtropical in my opinion. Whether it's inferior (or superior) is going to be subjective unless we have pre-determined metrics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asagi
It either is a subtropical climate or it isn't. Do you have any argument or compelling thought beyond "it's hot as hell and gets freezes sometimes"?
That's an excellent question and gets right to the heart of the matter.
My subjective criteria comprise hot (but not overly hot) summers, warm winters with predictably stable temperatures, and adequate year-round rainfall. This combination allows me to partake in the kind of outdoor activities I enjoy the most (except skiing of course) and usually corresponds to a pleasing natural environment. By my measures South Padre Island ranks below a lot of other subtropical places, particularly those of the Southern Hemisphere.
Obviously though other people have their own criteria which will be different from mine. Some people may love seeing twenty years of investment in their coconut grove wiped out in a single week. More power to them.
My subjective criteria comprise hot (but not overly hot) summers, warm winters with predictably stable temperatures, and adequate year-round rainfall. This combination allows me to partake in the kind of outdoor activities I enjoy the most (except skiing of course) and usually corresponds to a pleasing natural environment. By my measures South Padre Island ranks below a lot of other subtropical places, particularly those of the Southern Hemisphere.
Obviously though other people have their own criteria which will be different from mine. Some people may love seeing twenty years of investment in their coconut grove wiped out in a single week. More power to them.
What is your "subtropical index"?
I don't really care about your personal preferences or care to share mine. What is the point in discussing any of that, it all boils down to "but this is what I like". Ok, whatever. Unless you want to challenge what the definition of subtropical is?
Again, what's with the obsession with coconut palms? Do you miss the bye bye to the coconut palms thread? Coconuts are tropical and don't belong in a discussion centered around subtropical-ness unless you want to assert that 15C lowest monthly average is the lower limit for "subtropical".
I don't really care about your personal preferences or care to share mine. What is the point in discussing any of that, it all boils down to "but this is what I like". Ok, whatever. Unless you want to challenge what the definition of subtropical is?
What else did you expect to find in this thread? It's basically a rate-the-climate toy thread and was never going to be a bastion of objective scientific inquiry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asagi
Again, what's with the obsession with coconut palms? Do you miss the bye bye to the coconut palms thread? Coconuts are tropical and don't belong in a discussion centered around subtropical-ness unless you want to assert that 15C lowest monthly average is the lower limit for "subtropical".
15°C should not be the lower limit for subtropical; that's far too narrow. However it seems in North America you need to get warmer than that to have reliable protection from freezes--although on decadal time scales you probably need to be even warmer. Regardless, I suspect the reason why the 15°C isotherm becomes so prominent has something to do with that.
15°C should not be the lower limit for subtropical; that's far too narrow. However it seems in North America you need to get warmer than that to have reliable protection from freezes--although on decadal time scales you probably need to be even warmer. Regardless, I suspect the reason why the 15°C isotherm becomes so prominent has something to do with that.
What is the significance of a freeze and at what point does it become significant? Why think about it in such a binary flip of the light switch way? Things don't just drop dead as soon as it hits 32F.
I didn't mention 15C avg monthly mean to correlate with freeze severity. 15C is the minimum HEAT requirement for decent looking coconut. You can have a 10C climate that never freezes but you will never grow a coconut either. That's why you don't see coconuts in Guangzhou despite it being a lowland location at a tropical latitude. People in this thread have tunnel vision for freezes...on the rare occasion that it freezes in Miami, the highs are back into the 70s and 80s within a few days. All of this is part of the climate equation, it's reductive to place disproportionate emphasis on a rare cold snap.
North America is not unique in having climates 15-18C+ that occasionally freeze. You can find similar cases in northern Thailand, Laos, Queensland, South America, etc.
I've heard that theory before. I read that Florida was the sole refuge for the humid subtropical/tropical broadleaf evergreens that managed to persist in the Southern US — it was stated as the reason why species like sabal palmetto were more profuse throughout the state, then up the Atlantic, compared to spreading a farther distance west along the Gulf Coast.
It seems to make sense — I remember learning and exploring the Toledo Bend area (i.e. present day inland Texas/Louisiana), regarding the petrified palmwood fossils there. The palmwood fossils date back to the Oligocene, so there definitely was mildness going on until the ice sheets appeared later on. Also learned about the "temperate rainforests" that used to occupy what is now Big Bend Texas (near El Paso).
Persea borbonia and magnolia virginiana are two tree-sized species that I know of. There are other species, like those in ilex, but they seem more shrubby.
The thing with cold snaps that often seems overlooked is the aridity/dryness associated with them (i.e. hence lower dewpoints). I'd imagine laurels can't handle that as well as the sclerophyll pines and oaks — so there will definitely be more laurels growing on the immediate Southern US coast/Florida compared to farther inland and/or northerly locales that are more pine/deciduous dominated.
But, the coastal SE/Florida, when combined with spanish moss and such, allows a nice, lush look. Almost like (southern) East Asia and South America. In contrast, the subtropical zones in Australia, South Africa, and India just seem too dry-looking — nearly semi-arid in India, in fact.
There's an interesting blog post here about this year's South Padre Island carnage that illustrates nicely the issues some people (including me) have with subtropical USA. It's more germane to this thread than counting the number of iguanas in South Beach.
The post also has a video but be warned: the footage is extremely graphic.
It's possible this happens in East Asia as well, not just US. However, those cold spells are much more severe in Texas than South Florida for obvious reasons.
There's an interesting blog post here about this year's South Padre Island carnage that illustrates nicely the issues some people (including me) have with subtropical USA. It's more germane to this thread than counting the number of iguanas in South Beach.
The post also has a video but be warned: the footage is extremely graphic.
Totally true though Ed. It is a problem with no east west mountain chain to protect against like the alps or Himalayas. In fact, the himalaya's foster it. Plenty of graphics out there show that when really cold arctic air spills into Asia like liquid, it hits the mountains and with no where to go heads over the pole to North America. Fact. The absolute coldest weather is when Siberian air crosses the pole and can head straight down over Canada and down to Texas.
There are many counterarguments to this speculation that more strong cold waves will occur with greater frequency and cause decline of reefs. Anyways, the list of marine species that are permanent residents in SE FL but not found north of there is a long one.
On the topic of terrestrial environments, the flora of coastal SE Florida is overwhelmingly dominated by plants of West Indian origin. SE FL has the only tropical moist broadleaf forest/woodland in the continental US.
On the subject of fauna, the longterm presence of the American crocodile alone is enough to indicate a tropical climate.
Environmentally, SE FL has way more in common with Cuba and the Bahamas than it does with Orlando.
I believe you are right, se Florida is the only tropical climate in the contagious states
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