Is the climate of the southeast really an inferior/not a true subtropical climate? (cities, seasons)
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These would all be too cold in the winter by this definition, but I think their precipitation patterns and hot summer-dominant weather makes them good examples of a humid subtropical climate. Summer heat and wet, humid weather are the indicators, because if you go only by vegetation then cool oceanic climates could be used as examples when they’re very different in terms of weather.
Snow in Miami? You mean that one time in 1977 where both Miami and Freeport, Bahamas recorded a few flakes mixed in with rain? How does one or two days a century impact overall climate?
Miami Beach has a record low of 32F, are you saying it's a different climate zone across the causeway where the record is 30F?
What is the point of such a narrow transition zone? How is it meaningful at all to have arbitrary zone with 18C+ mean temperatures but "record low below freezing". What changes when an area has a record low of 35F vs 31F if average temperatures are more or less identical? There is no difference in climate.
There is no subtropical climate that regularly records a 70F mean temperature in the coldest month.
South Florida is an interesting case because in terms of raw averages it is tropical. However, in terms of climate genetics it 100% subtropical.
This distinction does have implications for the natural environment. For example, the coral reefs of South Florida are relict systems: they are left over from an earlier era. Their sustainability is limited not by average temperatures but rather periodic cold outbreaks--even if such outbreaks do not occur every year. A recent study in Nature Scientific Reports examined this issue:
Quote:
Toth, L.T., Precht, W.F., Modys, A.B. et al. Climate and the latitudinal limits of subtropical reef development. Sci Rep11, 13044 (2021)
...
The global distribution of coral reefs is generally limited to locations where minimum seawater temperatures exceed ~ 18 °C. In southern Florida, temperatures typically remain above this minimum, but winter cold-fronts periodically push reefs below that threshold, limiting modern reef development in the region. For example in January of 1977 and 2010, Florida’s reefs experienced two of the most extreme cold events on record, with prolonged low-temperature excursions causing significant coral mortality throughout much of the region. Because A. palmata is particularly cold-sensitive, even more moderate cold fronts would have been sufficient to limit its historic distribution to habitats south of the SFCRT and suppress significant reef accretion over millennial timescales. Currently, extreme cold fronts impact southern Florida with a period of ~ 20 years; however, it is likely that climate modulated the periodicity and geography of cold-front impacts during the Holocene.
The article goes on to provide evidence that for about the last 3000 years cold fronts have occurred with enough frequency in South Florida to have caused reef development to cease throughout the region (except the Keys). Furthermore, it is felt that contemporary climate change will amplify these conditions making it more likely that reefs will continue to deteriorate in the future despite increasing mean temperatures.
Quote:
Figure 5: Diagram of the two dominant patterns of winter atmospheric circulation over North America in relation to our study area: (a) dominance of zonal flow, which suppresses the transport of cold air to the southeastern United States and (b) dominance of meridional flow, which is associated with increased frequency of winter cold fronts reaching the southern United States including to southern Florida (bounding box). Southern Florida is expanded in (c), which shows the approximate trajectory (~ 45° angle) of winter cold fronts in this region in relation to our sampling locations on the Palm Beach Outer Reef (blue circle), the Broward Inner Reef (green triangle), and the Miami Inner Reef (orange triangle). This panel provides a hypothetical conceptual model (dashed lines) of when extreme winter cold fronts would reach different latitudes in southeast Florida with high enough frequency to suppress reef development. We suggest that extreme winter weather would have impacted increasingly southern latitudes over the Holocene in response to climate forcing. Cold front intensity may have also increased over time, a trend represented by the thickness of the dashed lines.
South Florida is an interesting case because in terms of raw averages it is tropical. However, in terms of climate genetics it 100% subtropical.
This distinction does have implications for the natural environment. For example, the coral reefs of South Florida are relict systems: they are left over from an earlier era. Their sustainability is limited not by average temperatures but rather periodic cold outbreaks--even if such outbreaks do not occur every year. A recent study in Nature Scientific Reports examined this issue:
The article goes on to provide evidence that for about the last 3000 years cold fronts have occurred with enough frequency in South Florida to have caused reef development to cease throughout the region (except the Keys). Furthermore, it is felt that contemporary climate change will amplify these conditions making it more likely that reefs will continue to deteriorate in the future despite increasing mean temperatures.
Thank you for the informative post. You mention that the reefs are from an earlier era — perhaps sometime before the Pleistocene (and advancement of the North American ice sheet). Or at least from a previous interglacial? I remember reading about the Toledo Bend region of Texas/Louisiana, and even explored there once — a huge collection of petrified palmwood fossils there, well inland of the current Gulf of Mexico shoreline.
These would all be too cold in the winter by this definition, but I think their precipitation patterns and hot summer-dominant weather makes them good examples of a humid subtropical climate. Summer heat and wet, humid weather are the indicators, because if you go only by vegetation then cool oceanic climates could be used as examples when they’re very different in terms of weather.
I think it really comes down to whether you think subtropical is reflected primarily in the environment/ecosystem, or is a more abstract and arbitrary concept that allows climates that have regular snowfall and temperatures well below freezing, to be grouped with climates that never see snow and freezing temperatures.
Humid subtropical means the coldest month daily averages above 32, hottest month above 71, and/or 8 months above 50.
That is the scientific definition, Trewartha came up with the term "humid subtropical", you're the one doing the jury-rigging.
Some people on this forum are borderline pathological in regard to this subject. The idea that someone could consider Nashville or Charlotte subtropical when it gets *gasp* occasional snow keeps them up at night.
Some people on this forum are borderline pathological in regard to this subject. The idea that someone could consider Nashville or Charlotte subtropical when it gets *gasp* occasional snow keeps them up at night.
I think it's more the idea that climates within the same classification, should resemble each other over the entire year, which isn't an unreasonable expectation.
Climates that have a record low of -27C, aren't really the same as climates that have a record low above freezing.
I think it's more the idea that climates within the same classification, should resemble each other over the entire year, which isn't an unreasonable expectation.
Climates that have a record low of -27C, aren't really the same as climates that have a record low above freezing.
The classifications are what they are though, beyond that it's just personal opinions. And this forum has had dozens of threads where the same people rehash the same arguments and opinions over and over with more vigor than is justified given that there is 0 (zero) real life implication of this. At least with political debates the outcomes can have a real effect on people...this is really an academic question debated in a forum with zero academic relevance.
The classifications are what they are though, beyond that it's just personal opinions. And this forum has had dozens of threads where the same people rehash the same arguments and opinions over and over with more vigor than is justified given that there is 0 (zero) real life implication of this. At least with political debates the outcomes can have a real effect on people...this is really an academic question debated in a forum with zero academic relevance.
Sure - without an explanation from the classification author as to what the intent of the system is, it all just playing with numbers, which may/may not have relevance in the real world. I don't see Koppen as personal opinion, just weak observational science
I want a system that can broadly explain the flow of air masses over the year, and the reason for them. Koppen does reasonably well at that, but has the odd spectacular failure (eg: subtropical highland as a Cfb climate.) It should provide a level of understanding between any two climates within the same grouping.
Personal opinion is interesting to debate, because I think it reveals a little bit about how people view the world they live in. My personal opinion is that any climate in a group, should feel like that sort of climate every day of the year, barring rare events.
South Florida is an interesting case because in terms of raw averages it is tropical. However, in terms of climate genetics it 100% subtropical.
This distinction does have implications for the natural environment. For example, the coral reefs of South Florida are relict systems: they are left over from an earlier era. Their sustainability is limited not by average temperatures but rather periodic cold outbreaks--even if such outbreaks do not occur every year. A recent study in Nature Scientific Reports examined this issue:
The article goes on to provide evidence that for about the last 3000 years cold fronts have occurred with enough frequency in South Florida to have caused reef development to cease throughout the region (except the Keys). Furthermore, it is felt that contemporary climate change will amplify these conditions making it more likely that reefs will continue to deteriorate in the future despite increasing mean temperatures.
There are many counterarguments to this speculation that more strong cold waves will occur with greater frequency and cause decline of reefs. Anyways, the list of marine species that are permanent residents in SE FL but not found north of there is a long one.
On the topic of terrestrial environments, the flora of coastal SE Florida is overwhelmingly dominated by plants of West Indian origin. SE FL has the only tropical moist broadleaf forest/woodland in the continental US.
On the subject of fauna, the longterm presence of the American crocodile alone is enough to indicate a tropical climate.
Environmentally, SE FL has way more in common with Cuba and the Bahamas than it does with Orlando.
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