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No coconuts no tropical. Not even FL is tropical 100% as Coconuts got killed by cold weather back when we had real winters.
Can't comment on the coconuts because I don't know about plants. But unless you mean not all of Florida is tropical (which is 100% true), Florida absolutely does have tropical climates, and freak frosts from the 70s/80s won't change that no matter what anyone says.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LKJ1988
The way things are going things are getting more tropical as the years go by.
Koppen is not good at presenting a spectrum of climates from cold to warm. There is not a straight line from tundra climate to tropical climate. In fact the difference between them is only 8 degrees. It leads to situations where tundra climates can be warmer than Toronto and tropical climates can be colder than Seville. The difference between tundra and tropical climate in koppen is only 8 degrees (less than 1000 meters of elevation!) but the range of humid subtropical climate is 18 degrees...
this place in Ecuador is a tundra climate
compared to the tropical monsoon climate here
From a UTCI perspective, these climates are extremely similar, with the tundra climate provides minor cold to no thermal stress (if we take 9-26 as no thermal stress). Which feels wrong for them to be 'opposites' then. In fact when we take koppen 10c as the polar cutoff (which does make sense since trees don't grow well under this temperature), there are plenty of subtropical climates in the US which get many, many tundra days per year. For example, Washington DC gets 44.4% koppen tropical days (18+ avg) and yet 32% of the year is koppen tundra days (<10avg). For a climate like philly the percents are 39.4% tropical and 36.9% tundra, using only the most recent five years of data, which favours the tropical end of the spectrum.
If a place has 39.4% tropical weather and 36.4% tundra weather it does not seem right to me to call that place subtropical any more than we would call it subarctic if those percentages were reversed.
to compare to Dallas, which as 61.5% koppen tropical days, they only have 15.2% tunda days. With 4 tropical days for every tundra day, it does make more sense to call this place subtropical
Can't comment on the coconuts because I don't know about plants. But unless you mean not all of Florida is tropical (which is 100% true), Florida absolutely does have tropical climates, and freak frosts from the 70s/80s won't change that no matter what anyone says.
If you mean warmer, absolutely.
You will even see Coconuts in north FL out past 30 years at the rate of heating taking place. I have not even been below 33f in years and never went years before without 32f or colder like i see now. That is why coconuts are growing in my area 28 miles northwest of Tampa. I only call a place tropical if it never see's temps below 42f.
Call it what you like but that is wrong and arbitrary.
I call Miami tropical for 97% of the year vs 74.18% in 1981. The rate of heating taking place it will be tropical 100% not very far away. Not even sure they have seen a 42f or colder in years anyways.
I call Miami tropical for 97% of the year vs 74.18% in 1981. The rate of heating taking place it will be tropical 100% not very far away. Not even sure they have seen a 42f or colder in years anyways.
Haven't gotten below that since freak 2010.
And Miami, no matter what you call it, is tropical 100% of the year with 1991-2020 climate normals. Will need to check eg 1961-1990 normals or just 1981 to see what it was like in 1981 though.
And Miami, no matter what you call it, is tropical 100% of the year with 1991-2020 climate normals. Will need to check eg 1961-1990 normals or just 1981 to see what it was like in 1981 though.
I know in 1977 they had snow. 1981 Tampa had a bad super freeze and Coconuts were killed all the way down past Ft Myers. It i remember right it was 21f in Tampa in 1981. It was year after year of super freezes from 1981 till 86. Then in 1990 the world changed for good minus 2010 when i had highs in the 40's and 50's for 3 months. It was like i was living in Atlanta. Then it was another huge ramp up in temps since 2011.
Christmas 1983 in Tampa, high of 3c low of -7 (19.4f). boxing day had the same low again and several more freezes that week it seems. It's hard to tell because many days are missing min temps, but some are filled in, including those.
For example in Christmas 1984, the Tampa highs are 28/29c / 80-85f all week and the low is listed as '0' for many days. When the real lows are like 15-20 probably
Koppen is not good at presenting a spectrum of climates from cold to warm.
Which is not what it does, it links climates according to their causes.
It does however do reasonably well at this in North America, barring highland climates. I'll get to this more below.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Space_League
There is not a straight line from tundra climate to tropical climate. In fact the difference between them is only 8 degrees. It leads to situations where tundra climates can be warmer than Toronto and tropical climates can be colder than Seville. The difference between tundra and tropical climate in koppen is only 8 degrees (less than 1000 meters of elevation!) but the range of humid subtropical climate is 18 degrees...
this place in Ecuador is a tundra climate
compared to the tropical monsoon climate here
From a UTCI perspective, these climates are extremely similar, with the tundra climate provides minor cold to no thermal stress (if we take 9-26 as no thermal stress). Which feels wrong for them to be 'opposites' then.
Perhaps it could be said that highland climates are the outlier when it comes to grouping climates by their causes, then (which of course seems to have been primarily designed with non highland climates in mind). I think the best way to go about them to circumvent any problems is to be aware that this is going to be the case, it's clear highland climates are going to be different from non-highland climates especially when comparing borderlines.
That climate in Ecuador is subtropical highland by the way. It has 6 months over 10C.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Space_League
In fact when we take koppen 10c as the polar cutoff (which does make sense since trees don't grow well under this temperature), there are plenty of subtropical climates in the US which get many, many tundra days per year. For example, Washington DC gets 44.4% koppen tropical days (18+ avg) and yet 32% of the year is koppen tundra days (<10avg). For a climate like philly the percents are 39.4% tropical and 36.9% tundra, using only the most recent five years of data, which favours the tropical end of the spectrum.
If a place has 39.4% tropical weather and 36.4% tundra weather it does not seem right to me to call that place subtropical any more than we would call it subarctic if those percentages were reversed.
to compare to Dallas, which as 61.5% koppen tropical days, they only have 15.2% tunda days. With 4 tropical days for every tundra day, it does make more sense to call this place subtropical
Washington D.C and Philadelphia are borderline, of course they aren't going to resemble the core Dallas. Plus the percentage of tropical and tundra isn't the main thing that unites them, as mentioned it is getting their weather for the same reasons. You could use these examples though to point out how much different weather happens for the same reasons.
I know in 1977 they had snow. 1981 Tampa had a bad super freeze and Coconuts were killed all the way down past Ft Myers. It i remember right it was 21f in Tampa in 1981. It was year after year of super freezes from 1981 till 86. Then in 1990 the world changed for good minus 2010 when i had highs in the 40's and 50's for 3 months. It was like i was living in Atlanta. Then it was another huge ramp up in temps since 2011.
Those were both freak events and Tampa isn't tropical, none of them can be tropical disqualifiers.
You're right about the post 1990 and post 2010 warmups though.
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