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Don’t forget, oceanic climates have mild winters, so if a place that is oceanic has lots of ecological activity it shows that it’s winters ate mild and has some tropical characteristics. That ecological subtropicalness or tropicalness you want to describe is literally the warmer end of temperate climates towards tropical(wether a warm oceanic, warm subtropical, and more). Well that is based on climatology with climate classification along with describing ecology. That shows Northern NZ is a warm climate compared to most locations with the climate. Like subtropical-is-temperate says, North Island is like Northern FL in winters but with less exaggeration, and with cooler summers to escale the hell of Northern FL summers! North Island is a tropical paradise compared to more typical oceanics like Scotland.
It's also why subtropical is a better label for ecology than climate, imo.
Well then that settles it, North Island is a warm oceanic climate with a subtropical environment. That is ok, it can be to describe ecology, but to describe climate it can be used too. Ecologically Virginia is still subtropical, it has relatively mild winter(actually mixed weather into mild averages) and hell hot summers. It’s on the warm temperate ecozone under holdrige. Virginia is subtropical end of the story, North Island is not in climatology but ecologically basically. Oceanic climates are lucky, I can literally find them in more than one ecozone, that shows that they are variable. I love both climate classification and ecological systems they help understand climates, ecology and more.
Here I go with an example(Cfa humid-subtropical is being used):
Humid-subtropical under Köppen is, C temperate(average coldest month -3°C-18°C/26.6-64.4°F, at least 1 month averaging 10°C/50°F or above, f humid(wet year round, or no pronounced dry season, or simply when it is not s or w, a’ hot summer(at least one month averaging 22°C/71.6°For above.
People mostly complain on colder edge, not accepting cities like NYC, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh
, Boston, Columbus, etc., so I made 26.6-45.5°F(-3°C-7.5°C) average coldest month to be pre-continental side of temperate climate, and 45.5-64.4°F(7.5-18°C) pre-tropical. So example Orlando is pre-tropical humid-subtropical, NYC pre-continental humid-subtropical.
I even made it more detailed(but remember after all it is just a single climate being break down to deeper meaning.
26.6-32°F(-3°C-0°C)average coldest month, it is part of the pre-continental, but a more blurred borderline to real continental.Example city in Cfa categor, Pittsburgh average 27.5°F coldest month. This is to give importance to both isotherms as well! Embracing both the -3°C and the 0°C isotherm.
32-36.05°F(0-2.25°C) average coldest month(26.6-36.05°F/ -3-2.25°C is the true pre-continental) is a pre-continental climate without borderline issues but influence from the continent climates are obvious. Example of city Philadelphia average 33.7°F(0.94°C) coldest month.
36.05-45.5°F(2.25-7.5°C)coldest month average, is the pre-continental climate that feels pure in its temperate nature but leaning more towards continental that tropical. Example city Cfa city Nashville.
36.05-54.95°F(2.25-12.75°C) average coldest month is the temperate climate, in this case the humid-subtropical climate without borderline issue, in other words pure one. It is the balanced area between continental boundary and tropical boundary, it takes half the way of each of the pre-continental and pre-tropical types.Example cities: Nashville, Atlanta, DC,Birmingham, Tallahassee, Jacksonville and more.
45.5-64.4°F(7.5-18°C)pre-tropical(54.95°F-64.4°F/12.75-18°C is the most outstanding pre-continental)
45.5-54.95°F(7.5-12.75°C) is the pre-tropical start line, tropical characteristics start to be pronounced, but only in a smaller level. Example Cfa city, Mobile, AL.
Average coldest month 54.95-59°F(12.75-15°C) is the pre-tropical that is in around middle line, many times even mistaken or thought by some to be tropical already. Example city, Ocala, FL.
59-64.4°F(15-18°C) average coldest month is where the line of tropical and temperate becomes blurred, this climate is so similar to tropical that it is very often though to be. Areas with this subtype can grow many tropical fruit and vegetation but are not yet tropical. Orlando, Tampa, and many Floridian cities, some southern Texas cities fit this description.
Average 64.4°F(18°C) average coldest month or more, finally tropical! 26.6°F(-3°C) average coldest month or below, continental it is.
This a nice way to look at it, Subtropical-is-temperate3 tried to relate climate classification with ecology here! According to his way of interpreting Köppen he puts North Island as pre-tropical oceanic. I think that pre-tropical can relate to Northern NZ pretty much with those mild winters. So according to him Virginia is pre-continental humid-subtropical. This is not bad at all. -3-7.5°C average coldest month he places pre-continental temperates and 7.5-18°C pre-tropical temperates. Eventhough 7.5°C point is just a middle point to thresholds and has no much ecological meaning, it makes some sense. Ecologically it would be more a 10°C average coldest month or above, but 7.5°C is usually mixed in between in climatology is good. So we can find a way to use ecology and climate classification together without breaking systems completely but just a bit of extra labelling. He went too deep, but the simple -3-7.5°C and 7.5-18°C Average coldest month is ok. I agree, finally found a good name for Auckland’s climate, pre-tropical oceanic a good name for a very mild winter and cool summer climate!
"muh sub-freezing winter lows!!!!!111!!!!!" ,while ignoring the very low max temps and complete lack of anything resembling warmth in a Scottish winter
Get real. Scotland is much colder and snowier than Virginia in winter. Averages do NOT tell the whole story - a 7 C mean max in Virginia will see many days over 20 C, while in Scotland it would struggle to push 10 C on the 'warmest' days lmao. And that's overlooking the fact that most of lowland Virginia averages 10 C in mean winter maxes... just a tad warmer than Scotland's 6.5 C or so don't you think... just a tad
Scottish winters are MUCH more dangerous to livestock than Virginia winters. Why do you think in AUS we only issue Grazier's Weather Warnings when the cold is accompanied by wind and rain, but NEVER when conditions are sunny calm and frosty?? Why do you think that is hmm.. let's not pretend that a sunny calm -5 C is anywhere near as dangerous as a windy rainy 5 C
I don't believe I claimed Scotland is warmer than Richmond in the Winter! That's just you putting words into my mouth HOWEVER as I said the fact is the average Winter lows in Richmond are sub-zero - no Scottish city records average winter lows below freezing! That is just a fact. Also frost is a BIG issue when it comes to flora and fauna, fact is Richmond Winters are too cold to be considered a sub-Tropical climate.
I don't believe I claimed Scotland is warmer than Richmond in the Winter! That's just you putting words into my mouth HOWEVER as I said the fact is the average Winter lows in Richmond are sub-zero - no Scottish city records average winter lows below freezing! That is just a fact. Also frost is a BIG issue when it comes to flora and fauna, fact is Richmond Winters are too cold to be considered a sub-Tropical climate.
As you can see the 'average' Winter low temperatures in Richmond:-
December 0.1 deg C
January -1.8 deg C
February -0.9 deg C
Whereas Glasgow average Winter lows:-
December 2.1 deg C
January 2.1 deg C
February 2.2 deg C
Like I initially stated Richmond has sub-zero Winter averages lower than even Scotland, Richmond's Winters are too cold to be sub-Tropical.
The highs make up for the lows, and also the warmer days too. The winter averages are similar to Scotland, but the summers are hot. You have no base to say it’s not subtropical besides the average lows below freezing which is irrelevant when it comes to climate classification. There is 70°Fs(21°C-26°C) days in winter, in Scotland only summers do. The average of winter overall in Richmond is similar to Scottish cities and the summer averages are hot like tropics, that sounds fairly subtropical to me. Oh and winters warmer in Scotland? I don’t think so, there is many days in Virginia there is some winter nights not going below 16°C while in Scotland 16°C lows can be even hard in summer! The cold snaps make averages similar, but the Structure of Virginia’s winters is actually warmer. Only the cold snaps make the averages be similar or colder. Also spring starts earlier in Virginia and way warmer, winter is basically shorter also. You have no valid statement to claim Virginia to is not subtropical.
Last edited by Subtropical-is-temperate3; 03-28-2024 at 04:17 PM..
Edinburgh has similar averages to Richmond in winter. See you can’t just claim that Richmond is colder than Scotland. Also Richmond in mid winter can bloom in warm snap days(eventhough everything returns to winter norm when cold again) I bet Scotland can’t do that. Edinburgh reached -8°C this year as lowest, while Richmond’s lowest this year was -10°C, they are so close! Even in cold snaps Virginia can still relate to Scotland! Winters averaging similar, with warm snaps, earlier springs, and then long hot summers, Virginia is subtropical.
Edinburgh is hardiness zone 8a and Richmond is 7b only half a zone of difference. So overall Virginia’s winters are similar to Scotland’s in averages but colder snaps and warmer snaps easily. Like I always say, the difference of subtropical and oceanic lies in summers, that is why Edinburgh is oceanic and Richmond subtropical. Their winters are similar but summers are different. Richmond averages 27°C in July while Edinburgh 15°C, that’s is different.
The highs make up for the lows, and also the warmer days too. The winter averages are similar to Scotland, but the summers are hot. You have no base to say it’s not subtropical besides the average lows below freezing which is irrelevant when it comes to climate classification. There is 70°Fs(21°C-26°C) days in winter, in Scotland only summers do. The average of winter overall in Richmond is similar to Scottish cities and the summer averages are hot like tropics, that sounds fairly subtropical to me. Oh and winters warmer in Scotland? I don’t think so, there is many days in Virginia there is some winter nights not going below 16°C while in Scotland 16°C lows can be even hard in summer! The cold snaps make averages similar, but the Structure of Virginia’s winters is actually warmer. Only the cold snaps make the averages be similar or colder. Also spring starts earlier in Virginia and way warmer, winter is basically shorter also. You have no valid statement to claim Virginia to is not subtropical.
Not in my book it isn't!! Frost and sub-Tropical do NOT go together! The LAST thing you expect in any Tropical / Sub Tropical climate is bloody frost!
The highs make up for the lows, and also the warmer days too. The winter averages are similar to Scotland, but the summers are hot. You have no base to say it’s not subtropical besides the average lows below freezing which is irrelevant when it comes to climate classification. There is 70°Fs(21°C-26°C) days in winter, in Scotland only summers do. The average of winter overall in Richmond is similar to Scottish cities and the summer averages are hot like tropics, that sounds fairly subtropical to me. Oh and winters warmer in Scotland? I don’t think so, there is many days in Virginia there is some winter nights not going below 16°C while in Scotland 16°C lows can be even hard in summer! The cold snaps make averages similar, but the Structure of Virginia’s winters is actually warmer. Only the cold snaps make the averages be similar or colder. Also spring starts earlier in Virginia and way warmer, winter is basically shorter also. You have no valid statement to claim Virginia to is not subtropical.
OH Lordy! For THE SECOND TIME where EXACTLY have I claimed that winters are 'warmer' in Scotland?
For the THIRD TIME let me reiterate:-
The fact is the average Winter lows in Richmond are sub-zero - no Scottish city records average winter lows below freezing!
How mild it gets in Richmond in the Winter is IRRELEVANT to my point the fact is anywhere that AVERAGES below freezing at any time of year is NOT what I would consider bloody sub-tropical! Do you know how averages work? The fact that it AVERAGES below freezing is indicative of a place that has bloody cold Winter nights!
Not in my book it isn't!! Frost and sub-Tropical do NOT go together! The LAST thing you expect in any Tropical / Sub Tropical climate is bloody frost!
Your book is nothing real, you use tropical and subtropical like if they were the same thing. There has to be difference.
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a good name for a very mild winter and cool summer climate!
