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Yes, because Tenerife is warmer. But I consider Sochi subtropical too. Why wouldn't it be subtropical?
Mediterranean climates are usually considered subtropical, especially in Europe where the mediterranean climates have warm summers. BTW Tenerife has rainfall concentrated in winter while summers are dry and some parts of the island have very low rainfall (the capital Santa Cruz has 214 mm per year) - does that mean these places are not subtropical? Santa Cruz also doesn't meet the minimum 18°C for daily mean in the coldest month to be a tropical climate only by 0.1°C.
I wouldn't consider Sochi as sub-tropical as its winters are too cool, it has average means in January & February of just 6C/42.8F & an annual mean of 14.2C/57.6F. It has very warm summers yes, but winters, early spring & late autumn are actually quite cool... Infact the average winter minimums are lower than where I live!
Mediterranean climates are usually considered as just that, Mediterranean. Hot summers with mild winters, also usually with higher rainfall than the summer months.
I don't think that we should be too strict with rainfall patterns in a sub-tropical climate, I see it as more to do with how warm it is. If it is quite warm all year round, then it shouldn't matter if it rains less in the summer months... I'm sure there is a sub-sub-tropical category for that anyway
I think the Australian definition of a sub-tropical climate is far better, one where the average annual mean is at least 18C.
I think Mediterranean climate is just a subset of subtropical climates. The only difference from a "true" sub-tropical climates is the precipitation pattern.
I wouldn't consider Sochi as sub-tropical as its winters are too cool, it has average means in January & February of just 6C/42.8F & an annual mean of 14.2C/57.6F. It has very warm summers yes, but winters, early spring & late autumn are actually quite cool... [b]Infact the average winter minimums are lower than where I live![b]
Now that's one thing I've noticed: people see climates as relative to the one they live in. If we define subtropical as "having a much warmer winter than where I live" we'll end up with almost all or almost none climates being classified as subtropical depending on who classifies them . 6C mean in January and February is more than 6C warmer than where I live - that would be an extremely warm winter. Last December and first half of January was really warm and it was indeed quite strange to see green grass, no snow and no ice as if this were some oceanic climate like the UK and not inland central Europe. The British isles have very warm winters for their latitude, it's not like if some place has winter temperatures like England it's cold and can't be subtropical. Sochi has much warmer summers. Is it only winter that matters? Is it only average temperatures or are extreme temperatures also important? It's not clear what is subtropical and what is not. You may think it's clear but that's how you see it. A commonly accepted definition of subtropical is in the Koppen or Trewartha systems but it looks like you have a very different idea of what is subtropical if 6C mean of the coldest month makes a place too cold to be called subtropical no matter what.
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Mediterranean climates are usually considered as just that, Mediterranean. Hot summers with mild winters, also usually with higher rainfall than the summer months.
Mediterranean climates don't necessarily have hot summers. Those around the Mediterranean sea do though.
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I don't think that we should be too strict with rainfall patterns in a sub-tropical climate, I see it as more to do with how warm it is. If it is quite warm all year round, then it shouldn't matter if it rains less in the summer months... I'm sure there is a sub-sub-tropical category for that anyway
Cold and warm is relative. Also, does it matter if the place has warm averages but can drop much below freezing occasionaly (that's true for a lot of places in the south of the US)?
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I think the Australian definition of a sub-tropical climate is far better, one where the average annual mean is at least 18C.
That's one way to do it. But it would make some places with cold winters but very hot summers subtropical. Also it's kind of arbitrary - why should it be 18C? But that's true of the other definitions as well - the thresholds don't correspond much to anything real. Is really a place in Australia with average annual mean of 19C somehow fundamentally different from a place where it is 17C? I don't think so. But it's the same problem as with the other definitions: they're all arbitrary thresholds used to divide a continuum and where these thresholds are depends basically on where we want to have them.
Now that's one thing I've noticed: people see climates as relative to the one they live in. If we define subtropical as "having a much warmer winter than where I live" we'll end up with almost all or almost none climates being classified as subtropical depending on who classifies them . 6C mean in January and February is more than 6C warmer than where I live - that would be an extremely warm winter. Last December and first half of January was really warm and it was indeed quite strange to see green grass, no snow and no ice as if this were some oceanic climate like the UK and not inland central Europe. The British isles have very warm winters for their latitude, it's not like if some place has winter temperatures like England it's cold and can't be subtropical. Sochi has much warmer summers. Is it only winter that matters? Is it only average temperatures or are extreme temperatures also important? It's not clear what is subtropical and what is not. You may think it's clear but that's how you see it. A commonly accepted definition of subtropical is in the Koppen or Trewartha systems but it looks like you have a very different idea of what is subtropical if 6C mean of the coldest month makes a place too cold to be called subtropical no matter what.
Indeed, and proving your point....
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Also, does it matter if the place has warm averages but can drop much below freezing occasionaly (that's true for a lot of places in the south of the US)?
...that is always what I've thought of as prototypically subtropical. Winters that feature swinging temperatures but are generally warm, perhaps featuring one or two snowstorms and a couple of truly cold nights. This is due to the fact that it's the closest subtropical zone to where I live. I find climates that just stay at the same warm temperature all winter to just be weird by subtropical standards, and I'm sure that someone used to that would think the American South was weird.
By the way, the entire American South is like that, with the exception of immediate coastlines and islands. Even South Florida locations, which feature a true tropical climate, have recorded freezes, and once every few years have a frost threat.
Even South Florida locations, which feature a true tropical climate, have recorded freezes, and once every few years have a frost threat.
I do get what you’re saying as well as your overall point…but to be fair to the climate classifications - …technically most of southern Florida is subtropical (cfa) – not tropical (Aw/Ar). The 18 C (65 F) line that separates subtropical and tropical runs only through the southern tip (in a U shaped pattern) and above the Florida Keys.
Tropical climates have NO frost or freeze – ever.
The only part of Florida that falls into this frost free/ true tropical zone in Florida is the Florida Keys (lowest temp of all time 41 F in Key West 1881 – 2012 )…and coastal Dade County (Miami Beach) County (lowest temp of all time 32.7 F 1899 - 2012). There are some non-NOAA reports of their never having been a frost/freeze in downtown Miami as well. Granted the rest of south Florida might only see a freeze every 20 years or so – but technically these area are subtropical (coldest month below 18 C/65 F).
I do get what you’re saying as well as your overall point…but to be fair to the climate classifications - …technically most of southern Florida is subtropical (cfa) – not tropical (Aw/Ar). The 18 C (65 F) line that separates subtropical and tropical runs only through the southern tip (in a U shaped pattern) and above the Florida Keys.
Tropical climates have NO frost or freeze – ever.
The only part of Florida that falls into this frost free/ true tropical zone in Florida is the Florida Keys (lowest temp of all time 41 F in Key West 1881 – 2012 )…and coastal Dade County (Miami Beach) County (lowest temp of all time 32.7 F 1899 - 2012). There are some non-NOAA reports of their never having been a frost/freeze in downtown Miami as well. Granted the rest of south Florida might only see a freeze every 20 years or so – but technically these area are subtropical (coldest month below 18 C/65 F).
You are incorrect. If you use 65F as the cutting point for tropical, then most of Southeast Asia would fall under subtropical. The tropics according to you would comprise of only tiny area of the world. Even Singapore has many sites that feature below 65F average for coldest month.
Hue city in central Vietnam. Inland southeast Asia gets significantly colder. Hu
You are incorrect. If you use 65F as the cutting point for tropical, then most of Southeast Asia would fall under subtropical. The tropics according to you would comprise of only tiny area of the world. Even Singapore has many sites that feature below 65F average for coldest month.
Hue city in central Vietnam. Inland southeast Asia gets significantly colder. Hu
You are incorrect. If you use 65F as the cutting point for tropical, then most of Southeast Asia would fall under subtropical. The tropics according to you would comprise of only tiny area of the world. Even Singapore has many sites that feature below 65F average for coldest month.
Hue city in central Vietnam. Inland southeast Asia gets significantly colder. Hu
18°C/65°F for the coldest month is Koppen's boundary between tropical and subtropical. Yes, parts of Vietnam and northern India fall under subtropical under this system.
We attach too much importance to the names of the climate zones, perhaps we should think of climate zones as just zones without the labels that have connotations.
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. 6C mean in January and February is more than 6C warmer than where I live - that would be an extremely warm winter. Last December and first half of January was really warm and it was indeed quite strange to see green grass, no snow and no ice as if this were some oceanic climate like the UK and not inland central Europe. The British isles have very warm winters for their latitude, it's not like if some place has winter temperatures like England it's cold and can't be subtropical. Sochi has much warmer summers. Is it only winter that matters? Is it only average temperatures or are extreme temperatures also important? It's not clear what is subtropical and what is not. You may think it's clear but that's how you see it. A commonly accepted definition of subtropical is in the Koppen or Trewartha systems but it looks like you have a very different idea of what is subtropical if 6C mean of the coldest month makes a place too cold to be called subtropical no matter what.
