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Plenty do, but not all. There are still some Asian Indian descendants who have not mixed. In islands like Barbados where the population is small, there is a far greater chance for mixture somewhere back there. In Trinidad, where they are slightly larger than the African population...it's a bit different. Most West Indians likely aren't pure anything though.
Antonio84 posted some genetic info that said AA are more mixed than Caribbean blacks.
When I said the term "West Indian" is misleading,it is.
First off,do you mean Native American or Indian as in from India?
Secondly,Domincan Republic is in the West Indies,yet I NEVER hear them refer to themselves as "West Indian".
Lastly,why do many West Indians want to create a new category on the census?
What will the term tell me about race?
Why do I never hear Indians from India refer to themselves as "East Indian?
When I was working with a Indian lady from Trinidad,and the other from India,why did the two both refer to themselves as Indians?
Sigh, the West Indies is a region and people from that region are West Indians. It's no different than saying Latin Americans, or Eastern Europeans or Southerner. IT'S NOT A RACIAL CATEGORY, so replacing West Indian with Afro Caribbean ( which most black West Indians already call themselves anyways) will omit West Indians of different racial background.
And the term West Indies was used heavily by the British, hence why people from the English speaking islands still use it, even though Columbus came up with the term.
Oh wow West Indian is a cultural group. Jamaican Indians (from Asia), a black St Lucian and a mixed race Grenadian will most likely call themselves West Indian.The term is most typically used in the former British west indies which include all the English speaking Islands. And Similar food, culture, music tastes, etc Nothing to do with race!
Sigh, the West Indies is a region and people from that region are West Indians. It's no different than saying Latin Americans, or Eastern Europeans or Southerner. IT'S NOT A RACIAL CATEGORY, so replacing West Indian with Afro Caribbean ( which most black West Indians already call themselves anyways) will omit West Indians of different racial background.
And the term West Indies was used heavily by the British, hence why people from the English speaking islands still use it, even though Columbus came up with the term.
I understand. But in the context,most people don't know that.
For example,in America we don't call Native Americans "Indian" like we used to do in the past.
Here where it is misleading. I was looking at a chart,and it said Oklahoma was 30% West Indian.
What happened is that people saw the word "Indian" and got confused.
You say that the term was heavily used by the Britsh,so I guess that's the reason Dominicans and Haitians don't refer to themsleves as West Indian?
The term is outdated.
Indian refers to a group of people,a racial group btw.
When I hear the word Indian I expect to see someone that looks like they are from India.
Africans have the most genetic and phenotypic diversity
Originally Posted by Neuling
West Africa is a very old region, populated longer then most other parts of the world. Thus there is a lot of genetic diversity, but then again, because of all the mixing over the tens of thousands of years, and the same environment that does not at all translate into much different looks. .
^Dubious. IN fact, West Africa has numerous micro-environments that contribute to different looks, from cool coastal zones, to hot sweltering savannah and jungle, and variable zones in-between. Narrow nosed people appear in hot zones, and broad-nosed ones in cooler coastal regions as one example. So right off the bat you are wrong.
Originally Posted by Neuling
You are comparing Africa to immigrant countries, which by nature are much more diverse than non-immigrant countries,
^^As Jonah says- numerous African countries have had immigration, from other parts of Africa, by other Africans who look different. The Bantu migrations are but one example. You simply do not know what you are talking about.
Europe as a whole is an immigrant continent. Modern humans arrived there relatively recently, and mixed with Neanderthals (black Africans are the only modern humans who never mixed with Neanderthals),
^^Modern humans did not mix with Neanderthals. New data shows that population structure due to a common hominid ancestor can MIMIC or IMITATE hybridization, so there is no conclusive proof of any siginficant Neanderthal mixture. See Condemi et al 2013, Possible Interbreeding in Late Italian Neanderthals? New Data from the Mezzena Jaw
And the geographical distance from Sweden to Greece comes close to the extension of the parts of West Africa where the slaves came from.
WHatever the grographical distances, such distances in terms of your shaky claim, are also irrelevant.
There is no scientific racism. Racism means judging and saying X is better than Y. It is not racist to simply describe differences, especially differences that are in no way about qualities crucial to human dignity..
The claim of "denying differences" is bogus. No one is "denying" that West Africans for example look different on the average than Swedes. WHat is racist is continually denying and/or distorting the cultural and biological diversity of African peoples in the face of long-standing scientific data. What you keep on denying indirectly or directly is that Africans have the highest genetic diversity in the world and the highest phenotypic diversity in the world. This is long established scientific fact proved by both DNA and skeletal data. QUOTE:
"Estimates of genetic diversity in major geographic
regions are frequently made by pooling all individuals
into regional aggregates. This method can potentially
bias results if there are differences in population
substructure within regions, since increased variation
among local populations could inflate regional
diversity. A preferred method of estimating regional
diversity is to compute the mean diversity within
local populations. Both methods are applied to a
global sample of craniometric data consisting of 57
measurements taken on 1734 crania from 18 local
populations in six geographic regions: sub-Saharan
Africa, Europe, East Asia, Australasia, Polynesia,
and the Americas. Each region is represented by
three local populations.
Both methods for estimating regional diversity show
sub-Saharan Africa to have the highest levels of
phenotypic variation, consistent with many genetic
studies."
(Relethford, John 2001. "Global Analysis of Regional
Differences in Craniometric Diversity and Population
Substructure". Human Biology - Volume 73, Number
5, October 2001, pp. 629-636)
and -- QUOTE:
"Africa contains tremendous cultural, linguistic and
genetic diversity, and has more than 2,000 distinct
ethnic groups and languages.. Studies using
mitochondrial (mt)DNA and nuclear DNA markers
consistently indicate that Africa is the most
genetically diverse region of the world."
(Tishkoff SA, Williams SM., Genetic analysis of African
populations: human evolution and complex disease.
Nature Reviews Genetics. 2002 Aug (8):611-21.)
I was lurking in a few threads that discussed African Americans, and there were many posters who commented that AAs tend to be lighter than Black people from Africa which is totally not true. I happen to be African American, and darkskin, and in my area there are many who are as well. Is it a regional thing? Where some ppl live do they happen to see more lighter toned AAs than darkskinned ones?
Actually, on the average, Africa has the HIGHEST skin color diversity in the world, as credible scientists have long shown. So talk about who is "lighter" really makes little difference over the continent. Africans beat African-Americans as far as skin color diversity. QUOTE:
"This study examines regional differences in within-population diversity
of human skin color. Published data on skin reflectance were collected for
98 male samples from eight geographic regions: sub-Saharan Africa,
North Africa, Europe, West Asia, Southwest Asia, South Asia,
Australasia, and the New World. Regional differences in local
within-population diversity were examined using two measures of
variability: the sample variance and the sample coefficient of variation.
For both measures, the average level of within-population diversity is
higher in sub-Saharan Africa than in other geographic regions. This
difference persists even after adjusting for a correlation between
within-population diversity and distance from the equator. Though
affected by natural selection, skin color variation shows the same pattern
of higher African diversity as found with other traits."
-- Relethford JH.(2000). Human skin color diversity is highest in
sub-Saharan African populations. Hum Biol. 72(5):773-80.)
I think African-Americans have a different "look" to them- they are larger in physical frame too, than the Blacks in Africa or the Caribbean...
so many things, such as mannerisms, dressing, hairstyles, makeup, "swagger", physically distinguish a race of one region from the same race in another region...
^ On what basis do you claim that African-Americans are "larger" than Jamaicans? Or Zulu? Don't just tender your opinion. What real data from scholars do you have to put on the table to back up your claim?
I won't respond to all that you wrote. I just want you to cite one credible source that says the diversity of West Africa (one of the most ethnically diverse areas on the planet) is largely the result of conquests from outsiders. That is what you are implying above. That flies in the face of the generally accepted scientific narrative of the continent. The ethnic differences found in West Africa are overwhelmingly a result of the fact the area has been inhabited by humans much longer than most other parts of the world. As a result, that time has allowed more genetic diversity to develop there.
If you are going to argue that West Africans have varying appearances mostly because of European and Arab invaders then (by your logic) that would make them less than African. So that would mean they are mixed in the same way you say black Americans are. And as a result they shouldn't call themselves Africans either, right? That is the same reasoning you are applying to African Americans. So either your theory of how West Africa gained its genetic diversity is wrong or your reasoning as to how black Americans should define themselves is wrong. I would say you are wrong on both accounts.
Indeed. And one can only roll eyes at the level of ignorance and denial that too often appears when various topics on Africans are discussed. The attempts to downplay or deny African diversity fall flat in the face of hard scientific evidence, which for a long time shows that Africans have the highest diversity AND phenotypic diversity. QUOTE:
"Estimates of genetic diversity in major geographic
regions are frequently made by pooling all individuals
into regional aggregates. This method can potentially
bias results if there are differences in population
substructure within regions, since increased variation
among local populations could inflate regional
diversity. A preferred method of estimating regional
diversity is to compute the mean diversity within
local populations. Both methods are applied to a
global sample of craniometric data consisting of 57
measurements taken on 1734 crania from 18 local
populations in six geographic regions: sub-Saharan
Africa, Europe, East Asia, Australasia, Polynesia,
and the Americas. Each region is represented by
three local populations.
Both methods for estimating regional diversity show
sub-Saharan Africa to have the highest levels of
phenotypic variation, consistent with many genetic
studies."
(Relethford, John 2001. "Global Analysis of Regional
Differences in Craniometric Diversity and Population
Substructure". Human Biology - Volume 73, Number
5, October 2001, pp. 629-636)
and -- QUOTE:
"Africa contains tremendous cultural, linguistic and
genetic diversity, and has more than 2,000 distinct
ethnic groups and languages.. Studies using
mitochondrial (mt)DNA and nuclear DNA markers
consistently indicate that Africa is the most
genetically diverse region of the world."
(Tishkoff SA, Williams SM., Genetic analysis of African
populations: human evolution and complex disease.
Nature Reviews Genetics. 2002 Aug (8):611-21.)
African-Americans on average tend to be more medium/dark brown while Africans on average are very dark to black.
Depends which "Africans" you are sampling. Scientific data shows that on the average, Africans have the HIGHEST skin color variation in the world- and this is INDIGENOUS Africans not Arabs, Romans or some other outside people who might be living in Africa at a particular time.
And West Africa has its own variation- it is not and never was one monotone as some claim. The so-called "Red Igbo" of West Africa are a case in point as are other peoples, and thier skin color variation does not rely on any "race mix" from the outside. Brown skinned people are found in dry desert as well as sweltering lowland savannah. Dark skinned people are found on high altitude cool slopes. Africa has numerous micro-climes and people vary based on climate AND the fact that as the cradle of modern humanity ot has been there longest and has the most diversity. This is basic Science 101 which so many people cannot even begin to grasp. They prefer to get their knowledge from National Geographic pictures.
Africa also has the highest prevalence of albinism in the world. Albinos are not very numerous, but Africa has more of them than any other continent, adding even more built in native diversity than anywhere else on that count.
NOW ON THE "RED IGBO":
Contrary to common belief, European slave traders were fairly informed about various African ethnicities, leading to slavers targeting certain ethnic groups which plantation owners preferred. Ethnic groups consequently became fairly saturated in certain parts of the Americas. The Igbo where dispersed to colonies such as Jamaica, Cuba, Haiti, Barbados, the United States, Belize and Trinidad and Tobago, among others. Elements of Igbo culture can still be found in these places. [/i]
For example, in Jamaican Patois the Igbo word unu, meaning you plural, is still used as well as the term red Igbo (or red eboe) which describes a black person with fair or "yellowish" skin which many Igbos possess. This term had originated from the reported prevalence of these skin tones among the Igbo. The word Bim, a colloquial term for Barbados, was commonly used among enslaved Barbadians (Bajans). This word is said to have derived from bi mu in the Igbo language (or either bem, Ndi bem, Nwanyi ibem or Nwoke ibem which means my people), but may have other origins (see: Barbados etymology). [/b]
The point is that such diverse people exist in Africa, independent of any
race mix from the outside either as part of built-in native diversity or albinism.
Native Africans (see below) have long testified to such diversity:
QUOTE:
"He disengaged himself from other life experiences
and went back to a particular spot in his memory
to capture the racial distinctions he was able
to make. He saw no distinction in skin color
between the red men in Igboland and the white men
he met on the slave ship. "
--Jacob Korieh. 2009. Olaudah Equiano and the Igbo world: history, society and Atlantic. 2009
" Oye-Eboe" may be a version of the Igbo word
oyibo used in the nineteenth century to mean
"white man," Equiano clearly uses it to refer to
other Africans, perhaps the Aro slave traders. At
this point in is life, he tells us, he had not
yet seen or even heard of a European."
-- Vincent Carretta. 2005. Equiano, the African: biography of a self-made man. p15
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Africans have the most genetic and phenotypic diversity
