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Good points, and all these problems have been there for a long time already.
But paper dragon? I'm not so sure. The fact of the matter is that living standards have improved dramatically for a billion+ Chinese people, and that consumer consumption and income continue to rise by every external and internal survey. Chinese living standards and overall power projection have a long long a way to go before it reaches U.S. and European level. However, it doesn't have to reach that level before it can start making its impact felt throughout the world.
I highly doubt the average Chinese citizen will be as wealthy as the average Mexican citizen anywhere in the near future. China has such a large economy because it has some many people in it. However the wealth really really is controlled by a select few. In short China looks good on paper but in reality when you look at the big picture they are actually pretty weak at the end of the day.
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Originally Posted by bostonkid123
I've been a vocal critic of the communist party in Beijing. However, my disdain for them doesn't blind me from the fact that their administration of the country has overall been competent and capable for the last 4 decades since Deng's reform and opening up. Give credit where credit is due.
How about no. I can't give credit to a political party whose policies lead to famine in the 1950s and 1960s and who created extreme poverty in there nation and isolated it from the world later on going "yeah we royally ****ed up". Only then starting to fix the massive mistakes it has made. So in short you can't really give the Communist Party Credit for much of anything since it was foreign companies initially entering China that built it up and the reason why China was dirt poor before was due to the Chinese Communist Party.
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Originally Posted by bostonkid123
I think the Chinese government and Party will face increasing challenges governing China on all fronts in the upcoming decade. However, China as a nation state has already been around for millennia, through bad times and glorious eras. I am eternally optimistic for the Chinese nation/civilization's ability to persevere and recover.
China could very well be one day be a shining example for the rest of the world with democratic elections and being open and free with all of its citizens pretty well off compared to the rest of the world. The Chinese people are capable of doing this and doing this well. Taiwan being a perfect example of how China could be in the future. However why Chinese citizens are capable of doing this the Chinese Communist Party is not. So my faith in China as long as the Chinese Communist Party rules is nonexistent.
I highly doubt the average Chinese citizen will be as wealthy as the average Mexican citizen anywhere in the near future. China has such a large economy because it has some many people in it. However the wealth really really is controlled by a select few. In short China looks good on paper but in reality when you look at the big picture they are actually pretty weak at the end of the day.
How about no. I can't give credit to a political party whose policies lead to famine in the 1950s and 1960s and who created extreme poverty in there nation and isolated it from the world later on going "yeah we royally ****ed up". Only then starting to fix the massive mistakes it has made. So in short you can't really give the Communist Party Credit for much of anything since it was foreign companies initially entering China that built it up and the reason why China was dirt poor before was due to the Chinese Communist Party.
China could very well be one day be a shining example for the rest of the world with democratic elections and being open and free with all of its citizens pretty well off compared to the rest of the world. The Chinese people are capable of doing this and doing this well. Taiwan being a perfect example of how China could be in the future. However why Chinese citizens are capable of doing this the Chinese Communist Party is not. So my faith in China as long as the Chinese Communist Party rules is nonexistent.
It's alright. You see China through your own lens and world views, and I do through mine. And like Voltaire said, I may disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Don't forget China has just been through the world's largest poverty reduction in human history, with 700 million lifted out of poverty in 30 years (please dont think the 'West' did that), the vast majority of them in the 80s and 90s.
The west opening up China did do that. If the West didn't have China open up the country would still be ungodly poor. The Chinese Communist Party is the reason why China ended up being so poor in the first place.
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Originally Posted by smool
And it's rather simplistic to sum up China as 'commies who ****ed up'.
It's being honest. The Chinese Communist Party shouldn't get any credit for helping to get rid of problems they created in the first place.
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Originally Posted by smool
Do watch - the 'Party' is not really one party but competing, meritocractic lobbies under an umbrella banner - hence why it's undergone bigger political reform than almost all democracies.
More like a giant assassination campaign over the years with different factions imprisoning and killing each other why selling it to the public as "fighting corruption".
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Originally Posted by smool
How China's Party works, and why:
TED lost all my respect when they let that ******* up there and just do nothing but spout propaganda. I'm not the only one who lost respect for TED either when they openly endorsed propaganda.
Also don't forget for Taiwan to reach it's current free press and genuine democracy (only granted in 1996 and 2003), it had to endure years of fascist control, purges and massacres of citizens/ protesters following it's split from Communist China.
Compared to the millions that have died because of the communists in China Taiwan's experience was a walk in the park.
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Originally Posted by smool
This included 30,000 massacred in the 228 incident, and 38 years of martial law (the world record duration) through which 140,000 Taiwanese were imprisoned and 4000 executed.
Remind me again who gets arrested if they speak negatively about the government online China or Taiwan? Last time I checked that was China that did that and not Taiwan.
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Originally Posted by smool
If the Kuomintang had taken control of China they would have been just as bloody and subjugating as Mao methinks, and on as large a scale (and not even counting the massacres committed during the Civil War, through which 4 million civilians died).
Considering estimates state about 100 million died in China due to the communists and the fact the Chinese Communist Party is still launching what amounts to genocide against Falun Gong practitioners I can't see how anyone not on the payroll of the Chinese Communist Party could legitimately support them.
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Originally Posted by smool
The Communists were no saints, but the fascistic Nationalists weren't either. -The way history plays out is hardly ever black or white.
Well at the end of the day Taiwan got the much better deal now then China so as bad as Taiwan use to be it's a hell of a lot better then China is today.
I love seeing us randomly pop out in this kind of discussions.
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Originally Posted by smool
Also don't forget for Taiwan to reach it's current free press and genuine democracy (only granted in 1996 and 2003), it had to endure years of fascist control, purges and massacres of citizens/ protesters following it's split from Communist China. This included 30,000 massacred in the 228 incident, and 38 years of martial law (the world record duration) through which 140,000 Taiwanese were imprisoned and 4000 executed.
If the Kuomintang had taken control of China they would have been just as bloody and subjugating as Mao methinks, and on as large a scale (and not even counting the massacres committed during the Civil War, through which 4 million civilians died).
The Communists were no saints, but the fascistic Nationalists weren't either. -The way history plays out is hardly ever black or white.
I agree with this. KMT is pretty much as bad as CCP, tbh. At least used to be as bad. CKS deserved to lose the whole Continent, I hope that SOB has been weeping in his grave ever since his death, lol.
KMT is still godawful as a democratic party nowadays, tbh. Like you can't even imagine how TERRIBLE they are.
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Originally Posted by cwa1984
Compared to the millions that have died because of the communists in China Taiwan's experience was a walk in the park.
Not really when you compare the population size of both sides.
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Remind me again who gets arrested if they speak negatively about the government online China or Taiwan? Last time I checked that was China that did that and not Taiwan.
KMT did that as well.
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Considering estimates state about 100 million died in China due to the communists and the fact the Chinese Communist Party is still launching what amounts to genocide against Falun Gong practitioners I can't see how anyone not on the payroll of the Chinese Communist Party could legitimately support them.
True.
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Well at the end of the day Taiwan got the much better deal now then China so as bad as Taiwan use to be it's a hell of a lot better then China is today.
And do you even know what youre talking about with China's poverty reduction? You do realise that 75% of it's poverty reduction was due to agrarian reform?
The World Bank found in its 2004 report on poverty reduction in China:
1. Agrarian reforms and lower taxes on farmers (notably through public procurement policies) have helped reduce poverty in China.
2. Macroeconomic stability – notably avoiding inflationary shocks – has been good for poverty reduction.
3. Public spending has reduced poverty, but not inequality, and the gains have tended to come from provincial/local government spending rather than central spending.
-No clear evidence that greater external trade openness brought rapid gains to the poor.
^If anything they found the latter increased inequality (factory workers are still poor, but a middle class grows, and an elite rises). "About three-quarters of the overall reduction in poverty from 1981 to 2001 came from gains to the rural poor. Growth in the primary sector (largely agriculture) did much more to reduce poverty and inequality than growth in either the secondary or tertiary sectors."
If anything China comes under criticism for not doing enough for the rural poor as it did for the citydwellers. If they had spread out reform and tax breaks as they did across all 3 sectors of primary, secondary and tertiary, poverty reduction may even have been halved in the relatively short time it took to lift 700 million out of poverty.
Wow you just completely ignored everything I posted about the communists after they took over China causing famine and they country going to hell for decades because of there policies and instead are posting policies that happened decades later after they realized how badly they **** up and started to change things. Considering China's economy is heavily export based and has been so since China opened up to the world I'm having a hard time taking anything you say seriously at all. Do you have any links at all to back up any of your claims?
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