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"The grammar that people use" would have been clearer than "The grammar people use."
Some People Like It Hot (starring Marilyn Monroe) and Ask Not What It Is That You Can Do For Your Country (JFK) would both have been clearer, too. But like the phrase in question, both were fine as is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CA4Now
Our fifth grade teachers would have tossed our papers back if we'd written the latter sentence.
Most people don't communicate as if they're writing fifth-grade papers. That's a good thing.
The insertion of that is useful when separating terms that might be confusing by their nature if left adjacent. Exs: The French that people speak in Paris.
In this case, French people is a well-known concept, so there is a good chance that instead of being individual parts of entirely separate clauses, French people might be a reference to people of the nation France; that eliminates that possibility. However, while grammar people could be used correctly as an open compound noun, the term as such is not even remotely common and is thus not likely to cause confusion.
Inserting that wherever possible isn't wrong, per se. But it is not always necessary, and quite often it is left out when unnecessary because a selective economy of words is widely esteemed. It is a judgment call.
Some People Like It Hot (starring Marilyn Monroe) and Ask Not What It Is That You Can Do For Your Country (JFK) would both have been clearer, too. But like the phrase in question, both were fine as is.
However, one would not read "Some Like It Hot" and be confused, and your second example is even more confusing than JFK's original question.
The "grammar people" sentence is confusing; especially if one is reading quickly or scanning paragraphs.
Everywhere I look I am inundated with it. I don't mind a minor flaw here or there in writing. But, I consistently see horrific misspellings, run-on sentences, lack of paragraph structuring, incoherent themes, etc.. What makes me cringe the most is when somebody presents themself as being educated and their post looks like it was written by a third grader.
What has happened to our educational system?
OP, I feel the same as you. If they can't write it properly, then how are they going to speak it properly?
It's pitiful. Even many teachers can't spell worth beans or use proper grammar these days.
Do they think spell-checker is going to fix everything?
OP, I feel the same as you. If they can't write it properly, then how are they going to speak it properly?
It's pitiful. Even many teachers can't spell worth beans or use proper grammar these days.
Do they think spell-checker is going to fix everything?
The OP was posted in 2009.
I just want to point out that the vast majority of English speakers do not write the way they speak. We tend to speak a kind of verbal shorthand. I might ask my DH, “You want to go to the store with me?” If I were to write this, I probably would write, “Do you want to . . . ?” or “Would you like to . . . ?“
I notice that when I text, I use fewer words to convey thoughts than I would if I were writing them out.
My point is, writing and speaking good English are not twins. Some of us write better than normally speak.
However, one would not read "Some Like It Hot" and be confused, and your second example is even more confusing than JFK's original question.
The "grammar people" sentence is confusing; especially if one is reading quickly or scanning paragraphs.
Nonsense.
All - like the absence of that that is bothering you - are examples of the common practice of word-dropping.
I think you're trying to play the role of learned grammar-scold, but you've picked a silly hill to die upon*.
Anyway, the original quote that has put the burr under your saddle comes from a 2001 book (The Power of Babel: A Natural History of Language) by John McWhorter, and he took it from the book Neropolis: Roman des Temps Néroniens (1984) by Hubert Monteilhet. Since his source is published in the French language - and since from what I've read so far of McWhorter, it appears that he can read both French and Latin - I believe the translation to English is his. Perhaps you should contact Mr. McWhorter directly and correct him. I don't have his contact info, but you can probably get it from Columbia University, where he's a professor of English and Comparative Literature. I'm sure Ivy Leagues scholars of English benefit greatly from internet rabble informing of their grammatical shortcomings!
*Yes, I ended that sentence with a preposition and I did so intentionally. It's just fine to do so, but the fact that it triggers a lot of people is a fringe benefit of doing so! Also, to paraphrase what Winston Churchill supposedly said (but probably did not - sadly, this little story is likely apocryphal) in response to a complaint that he had done the same: "This is the sort of pedantry up with which I will not put!".
I do not give a snert about typos or spelling error in CD posts. It is anonymous and usually done very quickly. Forums like CD are for conveying ideas. If a sentence is close enough to understand what is mean, then it is good enough. The one thing that consistently drives me nuts is when people use advise for advice. Not sure why that bugs me so much.
In a published book or news article, I get annoyed if I find typos or grammatical errors (especially mine). If someone is getting paid to generate the writing, I expect a little more diligence and professionalism.
However I do need to pay more attention to e-mails and texts before hitting "send" I have sent some really awful stuff, especially from my cell phone.
I had a business partner who hated the use of that wherever it is optional. He would always go through and cross out all the "that's even in a book. I thought he made his sentences unclear and grammatically incorrect, then I looked it up and discovered (that) it is optional in many sentences, including this one.It is correct either with or without the "that"
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