Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
What bothers me about Latin racism is just a general glorification of whiteness...
It is what it is. We look at the same issue through different lenses.
Yes. If an Afro descendant person is 15% white he is expected to consider himself "mixed" and to be offended if he is called "black". Yet try to call a white identified person who is 20% Afro descended "black" and its hell to pay.
Latin Americans think that they are less racist because they pose fewer barriers to someone who thinks that being "black" is a disgrace, so doesn't want to be considered as such. 5 minutes in most of these societies is enough to see who is rich, who is poor, and the fact that its considered "racist" to discuss this. And hell to pay to those Afro descendants who are "rude" enough to raise this topic in public.
Look how the black empowerment people in Brazil are degraded, even to the point of being called "unBrazilian", even as their president has had some rude things to say about blacks.
The USA has a legacy of racism and most whites will admit that it still exists. There is much conversation about this and gradually we have seen improvement. Ironically its this dialogue in the USA which has jump started such discussions in Latin America where FINALLY we are seeing such progress.
This is not a matter of what people chose to call themselves. As someone from the Anglo Caribbean I have a hard time considering Alicia Keyes or even Halle Berry as "black". The issue should be will people who look like them and others who look like Wesley Snipes have fair consideration. The answer in Latin America will be "no" in terms of upward mobility.
What is ironic is that a "mixed race" black has higher status in the USA than they do in most of Latin America because they assumption will be that they are educated and middle class.
We see this comment and then I am called "rude". I make it a point to almost never engage in personal attacks even though I have been subjected to many of these. Unlike some I don't go crying to the moderators either.
But back to mulato, you know very well it is not used in the Spanish speaking world these days. It’s archaic.
1. You are perfectly correct that the "one drop rule" isn't applied in the USA if one has a recent non black ancestor or if one's African ancestry is so distant or invisible as to be irrelevant.
2. Your description of the origins of the word "mulatto" are correct, but having said that its still used by several in Latin America, even in government publications. Its often seen as less offensive than "black". Latin Americans have argued with me (15% European) that I am a racist for not calling myself "mulatto". Its like "you have an ability to escape blackness, so you must hate whites for refusing to do so". They sad part is that they don't know how racist and offensive they are when the display this attitude, or call us "race obsessed" because we react to this.
As I always say I don't care what people call themselves. What I object to are double standards in how darker people are treated relative to lighter people.
Racism exits every where. Its that some places (the USA, UK, South Africa and the non Hispanic Caribbean) are honest enough to admit that it does, even if they argue as to the extent of its existence. France and Latin America seriously have mental breakdowns when ever the obvious existence of racism is pointed out to them. And I am called "rude" because I refuse to let them stop me from discussing this, much as they do to their own darker populations.
However, people like caribny who are migrants or off-spring of migrants seem to be removed from this cultural aspect of their island .
I arrived in the USA as a 25 year old and am relatively culturally unchanged. In NYC I am easily recognized as a Caribbean person before I open my mouth. Put it this way I am far more Guyanese than you are Colombian! I was raised by proud parents who wouldn't have tolerated being black being seen as a diminutive, while not seeing whiteness being portrayed similarly.
I have traveled to Latin America and have noted that I am treated BETTER than are the locals who look like me, once they know that I speak English and that I live in the USA. Places that are "private" suddenly becoming open to me when I open my mouth. Why do Latin Americans scream that they have no racism or that their societies are less racist when it is clear that whiteness is prized, that blackness isn't, and that black people aren't taking seriously?
I turn on Bloomberg TV and every afternoon I see dark blacks discussing the capital markets. I turn on news channels and I see similar people discussing affairs of state. Now how often will I see this in Latin America. And yes we will say that the USA is still racist and most Latins will claim it MORE racist than their nations even though upwardly mobile dark skinned blacks are way less visible.
But you can excuse "negrito" and admit that "blanquito" is used less. Or the blatant bigoted portrayals of blacks in Latin America which existed not that long ago. Things that disappeared on US TV 60 years ago.
I see "hahaha" when it is about blacks being made to look foolish, but when I ask if whites are made to look foolish based on being white, you call me "rude".
Glorification yes but you seem to lack global context because the glorification of whiteness is miniscule in LatAm .
We have seen many black women being made Miss USA/Miss America, etc. How many from Brazil? Why is it a major item when one is selected from the DR, or Colombia? In fact recent Miss DRs have reported that some seem insulted and determine that they must be "Haitian".
Yes these beauty contests determine how a society wishes to be represented. Putting a women who looks like the current Miss Universe (South African) isn't what most Latin Americans can handle.
Where I least felt racism toward the Afro population was in Puerto Rico. People called me (and I called them) "negro" and it was a term of endearment, and above all, high respect. It didn´t matter that I was white with green eyes or that I said this to some guys who didn´t have any African DNA. I won´t comment on the controversy of this year´s Miss Puerto Rico (though if you know about it, isn´t that a little ironic?), but I can say that many beauty queens from the island are Afro-Boricua and to me they have been the most gorgeous of them all.
Is the racial situation on the island perfect? No, far from it. But PR might buck the trend a little compared to its neighbors in the region. I have never been to Venezuela but a lot of my Venezuelan friends here in Colombia have commented that in comparison, racism and blackness were also no big deal over there compared to here, no one really cared enough to exclude people.
Just to further split hairs though, I have to add that not all Creoles are mixed-race. We're French and Spanish ancestry Creoles, with some Native American DNA...although that sliver of indigenous ancestry might have come from French settlers in Canada marrying with indigenous women (that culture is called the Metis..see that root word like "mestizo"?) and then the next generations making their way down to Louisiana.
Many people will ONLY use the word Louisiana Creole to talk about people with mixed racial ancestry, but the truest definition of the word is any person whose family was born during the French or Spain colonial days of Louisiana, prior to it being a part of the US. Most of us are a glorious mix of French, African, Spanish and Indigenous (usually in that order of % of ancestry). I hope that as time goes on, the different groups (like them and the Cajuns) come together and find more common ground.
It's interesting regarding the European component, many of the ones who identify as Louisiana/French Creole I've seen taken a DNA test, there is quite a bit of British Isles or Broadly Northwest European mixed in as well. Between the two latins, Spanish seems to be the larger ancestry whereas very few have substantial French ancestry from what I've seen. It could be that so called Northwest European ancestry is indicative of hidden French ancestry since DNA companies like Ancestry have difficulties picking up accurate French % even for French natives, but I think it's better to describe today Creole people as a gumbo soup mixed of European, African, and Indigenous ethnic groups. On the other hand, out of the main three, it does appears that African ancestry represents the largest component at 56% on average, thus Louisiana Creoles in particular are often seen as a subculture of African-American. Cajuns, on the other end, seem to be exclusively French/European derived.
Long before taking any DNA tests and finding records of my family history, I was told that a part of my family traces back to Creole ancestors on my mom's paternal side of whom hailed from (Northwest) Louisiana. Doing research on my family tree, this particular branch who are believed to have been Creole aren't indicated to have come to Louisiana until sometime in the 1860s or 1870s around time of my 3x great grandparents' births, and originally are from the states of Missouri, South Carolina, and Mississippi. My 2x great grandfather's parents and grandparents(not from Louisiana) were recorded as "Mulatto" on the 1880 census. Furthermore, the part of Louisiana they lived in wasn't really all that French or Spanish influenced. What is being referred to as Creole is really meant to describe the Southern or New Orleans region of the state. The northern portion(though there are pockets of Creole culture) is fairly Protestant country, so it doesn't differ all that much from the rest of the deep south. My ancestry is overwhelmingly African, some European, and a small amount of Native.
Last edited by Chicagoland60426; 12-24-2019 at 05:36 PM..
Where I least felt racism toward the Afro population was in Puerto Rico. People called me (and I called them) "negro" and it was a term of endearment, and above all, high respect. It didn´t matter that I was white with green eyes or that I said this to some guys who didn´t have any African DNA. I won´t comment on the controversy of this year´s Miss Puerto Rico (though if you know about it, isn´t that a little ironic?), but I can say that many beauty queens from the island are Afro-Boricua and to me they have been the most gorgeous of them all.
Is the racial situation on the island perfect? No, far from it. But PR might buck the trend a little compared to its neighbors in the region. I have never been to Venezuela but a lot of my Venezuelan friends here in Colombia have commented that in comparison, racism and blackness were also no big deal over there compared to here, no one really cared enough to exclude people.
In Cuba, "negro" is not slanderous at all. You have one hundred classifications for negroes. The negroest classifications are "telephone black", "bluish-black", etc. Mulattoes, at least 200 hundred classifications, they are not "Negro" per se except for racists. As to people that call themselves whites, at least 100 classifications. As to "white-white", people whose all ancestors are European, as Castro, most leaders, etc, there's only one classification, "white".The one-drop rule exist in Cuba due to the large affluence of Spanish immigrants, there are two ministers that are Spanish from Spain.
Don¡t go around saying that Raul Castro, Fidel Castros's supposed half-brother is a jabao, jabao is a person with 4 or 5 percent black that pretends to be white, you could get into trouble.
Other than that, racists and antiracists are forbidden.
Is the Cuban society racist, yes!!! Who are the most racist of them all? Blacks and people with some black in them. White Cubans might be condescending and paternalistic and make jokes about blacks, but not the vitriolic hate exhibited by people with some non-white in them. Blacks also are terrible againsts blacks, most policemen are blacks and they hardly mess with clean cut well dressed white people.
Last edited by CHESTER MANIFOLD; 12-24-2019 at 06:09 PM..
Negrito but not blanquito. Why? Jokes about how blacks look but not about how whites look? Why?
And yes we know about what happens on Spanish TV programming. I have seen it with my own eyes and am astonished that in the 21st century this was still happening.
Here is the deal. English speaking blacks aren't brainwashed to accept what ever little trivial box that others wish to place us in. We aren't expected to laugh when others make fun of us. If we are made fun of we will make fun of others.
If this makes us bad people in your eyes well that is your issue.
And yes I have spoken to Latin American black identified people on this issue.
You've yet again gone into a blind rage of uttering gibberish and not even referenced my points.
What about 'Guerito' which means comes from sick pale person? What about 'Mono', which in every other Spanish speaking country means monkey but in Colombia it's mostly used to refer to white/blonde people? You deliberately skipped those points didn't you?
What about 'Miss Fatty' or 'China man' in Jamaica? Again, linguistic context and connotations is something that seems to just wreck your brain or fly over your head.
As for your second rant of accepting a trivial box or being made fun of, of course not and I will support any movement against this but that is not the same thing as the linguistic connotations of descriptor based references in most Spanish speaking societies.
Is the racial situation on the island perfect? No, far from it. But PR might buck the trend a little compared to its neighbors in the region. I have never been to Venezuela but a lot of my Venezuelan friends here in Colombia have commented that in comparison, racism and blackness were also no big deal over there compared to here, no one really cared enough to exclude people.
Errrrmm, I've lived in PR albeit not long but was there for an extended stay and the amount of black representation in PR is low. Even Tego Calderon calls himself "negro y feo", "black and ugly". In Venezuela its worse, in the Carlos Vives' video with ChocQuibTown, Afro-Venezuelans comment on how they wish they had that kind of representation in the media of their country. The black Venezuelan youtuber DanJackson has talked about how he was discriminated on a regular basis in Venezuela and in the last census only 0.7% of the population identified as Afro-Descended!! I know you and your Venezuelan buddies might like to get together and have a biatch-fest about Colombia but don't be so naive as to buy into that nonsense. For many Venezuelans the sky is bluer in Venezuela, the grass greener and the rubbish smells nicer - its nostalgic nonsense.
Show me one other non-black majority country in the Americas that has given black communities reparations in terms of land rights? That's Huge! And of course JUST! Sure implementation is slow and dangerous thanks to insurgent groups and lack of political will/competence but it's written into the constitution and lawfully has to be protected.
Show me one other non-black majority country in Spanish America that has produced a "truly" black scientist to the standard of Raul Cuero who has worked for NASA and part of scientific research with the final aim of creating life on Mars.
Show me one other non-black majority country in Latin America to have Wakanda inspired music videos in mainstream media.
Show me one other non-black majority country in Latin America to have a black person win the prestigious Goldman award for environmental and social protection.
Show me one other non-black majority country where a mainstream group such as ChocQuibTown which promote black rights in their lyrics and black representation in their videos or where the most famous Salsa song is a protest song about slavery, 'Rebellion' by the master Joe Arroyo.
ChocQuibTown ft. Alexis Play lyrics;
"If we arrived with tremendous talent, imagine how it would've been if they would've released us in the ships" - Alexis Play
"Coming with the melanin burn of the skin, since before BENKOS, all of my ancestors, machines of rhythm with style, don't join the chorus if you're not with me" - Goyo Martinez
Show me one other non-black majority country in the Americas whose government has presented local African derived cultures to become World Intangible Heritage to the UNESCO of which three have been approved.
Show me one other non-black majority country in South America who has an icon such as Benkos Bioho that symbolises the black liberation movement.
Show me one other country in Latin America (aside from Brazil) where Afro-groups are sprouting up and down the country and where Afro-centric channels such as 'Afro Power', Afro-Up' or representatives like Yudis from Afro Power are making their fellow peers aware of their struggle in a neo-colonial American society.
Show me one other non-black majority country in Latin America that celebrates and attends in large numbers and with nationwide activities in schools and public spaces up and down the country 'Black History' month just as they do in Colombia in May and particularly the week of the 21st May, which is officially Afro-Colombian day.
Colombia is a country that is half-way between the 'Sweep under the rug' mentality of Venezuela and I'll hazard to place PR in that sphere and the out-right demands and racial tensions experienced in the USA. Black people in Colombia do not feel fear when passing by a Police officer in an urban setting in the same way they do in the USA (I emphasise urban setting because the police uniform in Colombia is green and from afar anyone in uniform in some parts of rural Colombia may strike fear for obvious reasons). However, they also have yet to have formed the economical power black people in the US have amassed, black people in Colombia are far less urbanite than in the USA and still traditionally rural based although this has slowly changed in the past two decades.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
