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I agree I never said higher tax translates to higher teacher pay. School boards don't control state laws the legislature, and governor are responsible for the system we have. I'm no expert in school district politics, but paying teachers $37k a year gets you the 3rd from the bottom education. If the Arizona constitution needs to be changed to fix it put a ballot measure to the people it will be passed by-pass school boards. You know red for ed will be back on the ballot again only a matter of time it will pass.
When I see Ducey on TV saying the schools are not that bad he's trying to candy coat these ratings show AZ schools sitting with poorest states in the nation it's a joke.
First of all, the number that you ($37k) and the OP use ($33-39) are what exactly? Average teacher pay? Average of all employees? Which district?
Here is an example from the Dysart District website (Definitely not one of the richest):
With the Governing Board approval of the proposed FY 2020 budget, the Dysart Unified School District is proud to announce the average salary of all teachers employed in FY 2020 is $50,799. As a comparison, the average salary of all teachers employed in FY 2019 was $48,303, an increase in average teacher salaries from the previous year of $2,496 or a percentage increase of 5.0%.
Now, as far as mandating from the Governor or making an amendment to the state constitution for teacher salaries? It will do nothing but create more issues and lead to disaster. Stop looking for state and federal governments to solve local education issues, they can't, won't, or just don't know how. The true answers to better education lie within the community, with people taking direct steps to change failing policies/issues without searching for silver bullet solutions from some political savior. To keep doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result is the very definition of insanity.
First of all, the number that you ($37k) and the OP use ($33-39) are what exactly? Average teacher pay? Average of all employees? Which district?
Here is an example from the Dysart District website (Definitely not one of the richest):
With the Governing Board approval of the proposed FY 2020 budget, the Dysart Unified School District is proud to announce the average salary of all teachers employed in FY 2020 is $50,799. As a comparison, the average salary of all teachers employed in FY 2019 was $48,303, an increase in average teacher salaries from the previous year of $2,496 or a percentage increase of 5.0%.
Now, as far as mandating from the Governor or making an amendment to the state constitution for teacher salaries? It will do nothing but create more issues and lead to disaster. Stop looking for state and federal governments to solve local education issues, they can't, won't, or just don't know how. The true answers to better education lie within the community, with people taking direct steps to change failing policies/issues without searching for silver bullet solutions from some political savior. To keep doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result is the very definition of insanity.
So your against teachers getting a salary raise is that what your arguing? Aside from the other issues you feel teachers should not make anymore money then 40-50k a year? That doesn't go far these days you get what you pay for they should be making 65k plus at least.
Are you retired transplant from the Mid-west? If so I can see why you want to keep tax low.
So your against teachers getting a salary raise is that what your arguing? Aside from the other issues you feel teachers should not make anymore money then 40-50k a year? That doesn't go far these days you get what you pay for they should be making 65k plus at least.
Are you retired transplant from the Mid-west? If so I can see why you want to keep tax low.
I think teachers deserve a raise, but the question is: how are we going to pay for it? Walking out on the job and protesting like they did last year isn't the correct way to get their needed raises either. We already pay an enormous amount of taxes (even in Arizona) for public education. Schools currently swallow up more tax money than any other government entity, and education is the largest state expenditure by a long shot. Property taxes are in the thousands of dollars, and this can be a hardship on middle & low income households.
Not everybody opposed to more taxation is a retired midwestern transplant. Some of us are younger, don't have kids, and don't feel that we need to keep shelling out more of our hard earned money to a bloated government bureaucracy which we don't use. I make sure I vote against any school bond overrides because I am absolutely opposed to increased property taxes ... in fact, I'm opposed to the amount of taxation forced on all property owners. It should be the users of the system (namely the parents) who pay the bulk of the taxes. You're in favor of giving teachers a nice salary bump? Fine. Give them their deserved raise, and send the bill to the people with kids in public school, not to everybody else.
I'm not so sure the money is getting all the way down to ground level at schools. We get so many emails requesting help with donations for supplies. Then there are school "check a thons" and so forth. I guess it's like what someone said above about the people in suits at the district making the literal buck stop there.
So your against teachers getting a salary raise is that what your arguing? Aside from the other issues you feel teachers should not make anymore money then 40-50k a year? That doesn't go far these days you get what you pay for they should be making 65k plus at least.
Are you retired transplant from the Mid-west? If so I can see why you want to keep tax low.
I guess when all else fails go for the attempted identity politics insult?
I guess when all else fails go for the attempted identity politics insult?
Wasn't meant to be an insult I can see where your coming from if that is why your against giving raises to teachers because you feel it will result in higher tax. Retired on a fixed income no kids no need for higher paying job trying to keep tax low.
I never had kids have no use for schools either, but what I recognize is the fact majority have kids if Arizona wants large employers to move here we need schools which are not rated in the bottom poorest states in the nation like Louisiana, and Mississippi. I understand were not going to have 1st rate school with tax rates we have but how about schools rated in the middle not at the bottom.
First you argued that a tax hike under the guise of a teacher salary raise would have little affect on teacher salary's. This was because school boards, and administrators miss-manage tax dollars which were meant to go to teacher salary raises.
My response was the Legislature, and Governor were responsible for the system we have should fix the situation. You responded that teacher salary wasn't low pulling a link showed teachers made average 40-50k.
What I'm trying to say is the legislature, and governor can fix the system so teacher get a raise without raising tax yet Ducey continues to say Arizona school system is not 3rd worst school system in the nation it is. Charter schools didn't fix the problem some of those are worse then public system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Native
I think teachers deserve a raise, but the question is: how are we going to pay for it? Walking out on the job and protesting like they did last year isn't the correct way to get their needed raises either. We already pay an enormous amount of taxes (even in Arizona) for public education. Schools currently swallow up more tax money than any other government entity, and education is the largest state expenditure by a long shot. Property taxes are in the thousands of dollars, and this can be a hardship on middle & low income households.
Not everybody opposed to more taxation is a retired midwestern transplant. Some of us are younger, don't have kids, and don't feel that we need to keep shelling out more of our hard earned money to a bloated government bureaucracy which we don't use. I make sure I vote against any school bond overrides because I am absolutely opposed to increased property taxes ... in fact, I'm opposed to the amount of taxation forced on all property owners. It should be the users of the system (namely the parents) who pay the bulk of the taxes. You're in favor of giving teachers a nice salary bump? Fine. Give them their deserved raise, and send the bill to the people with kids in public school, not to everybody else.
I used to think like that as I said never had kids, but reality is we need schools not be in the bottom 3 worst in the nation. Teachers in 2019 should be making decent salary 50-70k a year is where it if we want to get better teachers in the classroom. The reason I changed my mind was we lost some big employers like Amazon and others to other states. These employers look at more then just lower tax one thing will be school systems. I understand we aren't going to be number one Arizona should be in the top 10 schools.
My response was the Legislature, and Governor were responsible for the system we have should fix the situation. You responded that teacher salary wasn't low pulling a link showed teachers made average 40-50k.
What I'm trying to say is the legislature, and governor can fix the system so teacher get a raise without raising tax yet Ducey continues to say Arizona school system is not 3rd worst school system in the nation it is. Charter schools didn't fix the problem some of those are worse then public system.
How? The individual districts set the teacher's pay rates. All the State can do is dump more money in the system. Where is the outrage for the districts? Or is it just easier to say that the evil Government doesn't value education? The second largest budget item behind State Healthcare is K-12 Education to the tune of over $7B.
The Governor's 20 by 20 program is putting more money in the system aimed at getting teachers raises but it is still up to the District to provide those raises. Most did, some didn't. Even this year there were some teachers saying they didn't get a raise after the state poured another $600M+ into the never ending black hole of our education system. It is never "enough". Now the R4E crowd wants free breakfast and lunch for all students? Even if we added another $1B into the system they would still want more.
What I'm trying to say is the legislature, and governor can fix the system so teacher get a raise without raising tax yet Ducey continues to say Arizona school system is not 3rd worst school system in the nation it is. Charter schools didn't fix the problem some of those are worse then public system.
The state should be able to find a way to divert the money where it belongs (teachers & the classrooms) instead of administration. I'll agree that teachers are underpaid considering how much higher education is required and how much they have to endure on a daily basis (undisciplined kids, parents with entitlement attitudes, etc.). I also agree that charter schools aren't a solution at all. I voted NO on last year's initiative to expand the voucher/charter program, and I was glad it went down in defeat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kell490
I used to think like that as I said never had kids, but reality is we need schools not be in the bottom 3 worst in the nation. Teachers in 2019 should be making decent salary 50-70k a year is where it if we want to get better teachers in the classroom. The reason I changed my mind was we lost some big employers like Amazon and others to other states. These employers look at more then just lower tax one thing will be school systems. I understand we aren't going to be number one Arizona should be in the top 10 schools.
Believe me, I hate the statistics that keep putting Arizona near the bottom in the nation for education. It's a complete embarrassment. But here's the dilemma: when we put more funding in education (which nearly always requires increasing taxes), it is no guarantee that educational standards will improve. We have already voted several times since 2000 to increase education spending in AZ, and it's still the same old story: parents & political liberals still claim we're not spending enough & they always want more. Throwing more money at the problem is never the solution.
My ultimate solution is privatization of education, but I have conceded that will never happen because there would be too much resistance. Meanwhile, the parents with kids in the school system could certainly do more on their part to improve the issue with funding and overall conditions. They can & should be volunteering more of their time & money to the classrooms. This is why I strongly believe that the ones who use the system should be paying all or most of the taxes (a user fee). After all, they made the choice to have kids & put them in the public system, so they should be paying into it a lot more than they already do. Far too many parents use the schools as their own free babysitting service.
Believe me, I hate the statistics that keep putting Arizona near the bottom in the nation for education. It's a complete embarrassment. But here's the dilemma: when we put more funding in education (which nearly always requires increasing taxes), it is no guarantee that educational standards will improve. We have already voted several times since 2000 to increase education spending in AZ, and it's still the same old story: parents & political liberals still claim we're not spending enough & they always want more. Throwing more money at the problem is never the solution.
[...] Meanwhile, the parents with kids in the school system could certainly do more on their part to improve the issue with funding and overall conditions. They can & should be volunteering more of their time & money to the classrooms.
In the first paragraph you correctly noted that funding has already been increased, and there was no improvement. Why would parents paying more on their own outside of the tax system get any better results?
Taxes go up on the assertion it will improve education, then there is no improvement in education. Is there any consequence to that? Do taxes go back down and the level of funding go back down because the increased spending made no difference? No. There are just calls to increase taxes and spending even more, despite the just obtained evidence that more spending doesn't help.
Anyone who truly believed more taxes and spending would lead to better outcomes would be happy, even insist, to include a provision that if results didn't improve the taxes and spending would go back down, so peoples' money isn't wasted. I've never seen it happen. Because they already know a priori there will be no improvement.
In the first paragraph you correctly noted that funding has already been increased, and there was no improvement. Why would parents paying more on their own outside of the tax system get any better results?
Taxes go up on the assertion it will improve education, then there is no improvement in education. Is there any consequence to that? Do taxes go back down and the level of funding go back down because the increased spending made no difference? No. There are just calls to increase taxes and spending even more, despite the just obtained evidence that more spending doesn't help.
Anyone who truly believed more taxes and spending would lead to better outcomes would be happy, even insist, to include a provision that if results didn't improve the taxes and spending would go back down, so peoples' money isn't wasted. I've never seen it happen. Because they already know a priori there will be no improvement.
It's a matter of shifting the tax burden to the parents with children in the school system, which can be referred to as a user fee. Yes, in that scenario, the parents would be paying more out of their own pockets, and those without children in the system would be paying little or nothing in taxes. I can pretty much guarantee that parents would be more involved in their children's education instead of using the schools as free daycare because their money would be at stake.
All in all, the solution is not more spending or more taxation. We have tried that tired out approach repeatedly, only with no improvement. If parents are going to keep sending their kids to public school, the responsibility should be primarily on them (not everybody else) to pay out of their own pockets to support the system, as well as ensure their kids are actually getting the best quality education possible. They can & should be volunteering as much as possible also.
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