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Here's the difference: Taiwan has moved away from the authoritarian Chiang regime and has become a very lively and free wheeling democracy. And they did that because the populace's expectations have also evoved and demanded that.
Maybe in the old colonial days Hong Kong could get away with having an elite ruling cadre that ran the territory like a private club by and for the business interests because much of the population was poor, uneducated and just struggling to survive.
That's not the same anymore, and today's HK community, especially the younger generations, demand more from their government, especially accountability and more responsiveness to the majority of the community's concerns, not just the tycoons.
You are forgetting that Hong Kong is not a country, China is. Taiwan would have never moved away from the the authoritarian Chiang regime if one city in Taiwan demanded change for their city and started to riot and attack taiwanese who did not support the city's movement.
He would have done exactly the same that happened in this timeline, he would crack down on dissent and create new laws to control the rebel city.
some good points here as we see the progress made in 6 years in china vs the so call "democratic" system
take the example of hk, tw, and the us:
since every election is nothing but popularity contests, all the politicians need is 51% (or even less in many cases) support to be elected into office. Every time this happens there are bound to be 40 to 50% of the people not happy with the elected officials.
It's always the two camps of politicians pitting against each other to try to win the majority, rather than focusing on steps that benefits all the people in the state. pro establish vs pan dem, blue vs green, red vs blue are in an endless struggle in this popularity contest.
Think about it this way, corporations don't run this way, not every employee get to vote or get the same vote. But think of the problem when you have a janitor carry the same weight vs a managing director when voting for the leaders sets directions for the corporation.
I don't know where you guys live, but I hope you're proud of the fact that less educated and less capable people carrying the same vote as you do in deciding who runs your state/country
You are forgetting that Hong Kong is not a country, China is. Taiwan would have never moved away from the the authoritarian Chiang regime if one city in Taiwan demanded change for their city and started to riot and attack taiwanese who did not support the city's movement.
He would have done exactly the same that happened in this timeline, he would crack down on dissent and create new laws to control the rebel city.
My point is that current HK residents aren't like the ones in the old days. They want more autonomy and change from the current situation. Problem is that they're up against a regime that isn't going to give it to them, and is in fact, going the other direction.
Hong Kong and its 7m people never had the rights to vote for their leaders. Even before 1997, the HK governor had always been appointed by the British government, not elected by the HK people.
A fact western media never cared to mention. Now they talk as if China is taking away their voting rights (which they never had), and so many people seem to be under the impression that HK was a democratic regime under London's rule and now Beijing is changing that.
Speaking of brainwashing. I don't mind arguing for either side, but at least get the facts straight first.
I had a housemate from HK long ago. He would rant about the US/West pushing democracy. He said it's not for everyone, and these fanatical democratizers should mind their own business.
It really depends on culture, in some respects. Some societies who have always had a hereditary leader simply vote for the same leader or his son, when forced to hold elections. Or, as in Zimbabwe, political parties form along clan lines. Sometimes democratization and the required voting by ballot really messes things up; whereas previously, leaders were chosen by whoever undeniably exhibited the qualities of leadership and gained people's respect, suddenly the door is open to manipulation and ballot-box-stuffing by people lusting power and wealth.
"Deocratization" is nowhere near as simple a matter as those proselytizing it would have us believe.
some good points here as we see the progress made in 6 years in china vs the so call "democratic" system
take the example of hk, tw, and the us:
since every election is nothing but popularity contests, all the politicians need is 51% (or even less in many cases) support to be elected into office. Every time this happens there are bound to be 40 to 50% of the people not happy with the elected officials.
It's always the two camps of politicians pitting against each other to try to win the majority, rather than focusing on steps that benefits all the people in the state. pro establish vs pan dem, blue vs green, red vs blue are in an endless struggle in this popularity contest.
Think about it this way, corporations don't run this way, not every employee get to vote or get the same vote. But think of the problem when you have a janitor carry the same weight vs a managing director when voting for the leaders sets directions for the corporation.
I don't know where you guys live, but I hope you're proud of the fact that less educated and less capable people carrying the same vote as you do in deciding who runs your state/country
Right, so your preference would be....intelligence tests, prior to voting? That type of thing was tried in the US, and was struck down by the Supreme Court.
My point is that current HK residents aren't like the ones in the old days. They want more autonomy and change from the current situation. Problem is that they're up against a regime that isn't going to give it to them, and is in fact, going the other direction.
more autonomy? comparing to what state? let's use Catalonia of spain for example? you think they have more autonomy than hong kong?
for one thing the hong kongers don't pay a single dime of tax to the chinese government. Please name one city/state that has more autonomy than hong kong
Right, so your preference would be....intelligence tests, prior to voting? That type of thing was tried in the US, and was struck down by the Supreme Court.
Oh well.
no, my point is that every country has a government that suites their needs.
as the point of this thread, HK was never a democratic system until the late 1990s. They will need time to explore a system of government. Rushing democracy would be led them to the disaster like taiwan.
If you look at countries like vietnam and singapore over these past 6 years, they don't have a true "democracy" but have tremendous stability and growth.
some good points here as we see the progress made in 6 years in china vs the so call "democratic" system
take the example of hk, tw, and the us:
since every election is nothing but popularity contests, all the politicians need is 51% (or even less in many cases) support to be elected into office. Every time this happens there are bound to be 40 to 50% of the people not happy with the elected officials.
It's always the two camps of politicians pitting against each other to try to win the majority, rather than focusing on steps that benefits all the people in the state. pro establish vs pan dem, blue vs green, red vs blue are in an endless struggle in this popularity contest.
Think about it this way, corporations don't run this way, not every employee get to vote or get the same vote. But think of the problem when you have a janitor carry the same weight vs a managing director when voting for the leaders sets directions for the corporation.
I don't know where you guys live, but I hope you're proud of the fact that less educated and less capable people carrying the same vote as you do in deciding who runs your state/country
Countries are not corporations. Do you get a salary from your government? No, you pay taxes. Your analogy is laughable (not surprising though, coming from you).
Just because China has had normal economic growth in the past few decades for a developing country doesn't make it some sort of legend or a better example to follow. The only difference is that China has a **** ton of people (therefore a **** ton of poverty). Sure, banana republics would use China's (pitiful) rhetoric to support their narrative, but some of us have higher standards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maomao
as the point of this thread, HK was never a democratic system until the late 1990s. They will need time to explore a system of government. Rushing democracy would be led them to the disaster like taiwan.
Lol that's rich. I haven't seen a Taiwan-bashing post in a long time, this sure is a breath of fresh air lmao.
Quote:
If you look at countries like vietnam and singapore over these past 6 years, they don't have a true "democracy" but have tremendous stability and growth.
Singapore is a city, and Vietnam's growth over the past 6 years is nothing worth writing home about. It's so underdeveloped and poor that there's no way to go but up. Try harder.
Countries are not corporations. Do you get a salary from your government? No, you pay taxes. Your analogy is laughable (not surprising though, coming from you).
Just because China has had normal economic growth in the past few decades for a developing country doesn't make it some sort of legend or a better example to follow. The only difference is that China has a **** ton of people (therefore a **** ton of poverty). Sure, banana republics would use China's (pitiful) rhetoric to support their narrative, but some of us have higher standards.
Lol that's rich. I haven't seen a Taiwan-bashing post in a long time, this sure is a breath of fresh air lmao.
Singapore is a city, and Vietnam's growth over the past 6 years is nothing worth writing home about. It's so underdeveloped and poor that there's no way to go but up. Try harder.
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