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I'm curious to what you think are the "goals of the protests", can you expand on that?
You do have a point, there are multiple goals and for instance I do not support the anti-tourists protests.
I was against the extradition treaty when it was proposed, I am pro universial suffrage in Hong Kong and the Yuan Long incident shocked me and I believe an investigation on who is behind this incident is warrented. Although I noticed things I did not like before that, I mainly started to speak out against the protest when they entered the airport, which led to massive economic damage and two chinese people got tied up and beaten. It was so bad that some of the protestors broke ranks and spoke out.
After that it was impossible to get any sympathy for the protest on the mainland, so the only way left was through force. But China is a country of 1.4 billion people, there is no way a subsection of 7 million people can force their will of an united 1.4 billion people. To think anything else is just stupid, and as we can see now, it ended in total failure.
In my opinion, they should have tried to change the minds of the 50 million tourists that come to Hong Kong every year. The people who come to Hong Kong are the most pro-Hong Kong people in China, by talking to them and treating them nicely, they could have become Hong Kongs ambassadors in China. Even if that does not lead to the changes they want, at least it would make it almost impossible for China to implement the national security law or other laws they do not want.
no, the so call separatists was actually elected into serving in legco. Had they not played around when giving their oath, they would not have been kicked out of office by the court and disqualified from future elections.
the chinese central government would not have done anything had the separatists not gone too far, also the US sponsoring the separatists doesn't help either and made it much worse.
Not really. While some incumbent or experienced politicians were disqualified, there were also some like Joshua Wong was disqualified before he could actually run for office, as were some other candidates which were new as candidates though not to community activism.
Not really. While some incumbent or experienced politicians were disqualified, there were also some like Joshua Wong was disqualified before he could actually run for office, as were some other candidates which were new as candidates though not to community activism.
please read up on the history. the person you mentioned was disqualified because his party affiliate whom was already elected into legco, and kicked out office by the court due to his oath taking. From that point on, all those who are affiliated with that particular party are disqualified due to the political party's beliefs
for a long time, someone who is openly anti ccp had been serving in legco for many years, go look up "long hair". This disqualification is new and only came around in the last 5 years or so after the separatist come out.
so in conclusion, anti-ccp doesn't get you disqualify, but promoting separation/independence does, and that is exactly how spain works in catalonia. Hong kong has one up on autonomy over catalonia as they control their own finances and don't pay a single dime to tax to the chinese government.
You do have a point, there are multiple goals and for instance I do not support the anti-tourists protests.
I was against the extradition treaty when it was proposed, I am pro universial suffrage in Hong Kong and the Yuan Long incident shocked me and I believe an investigation on who is behind this incident is warrented. Although I noticed things I did not like before that, I mainly started to speak out against the protest when they entered the airport, which led to massive economic damage and two chinese people got tied up and beaten. It was so bad that some of the protestors broke ranks and spoke out.
After that it was impossible to get any sympathy for the protest on the mainland, so the only way left was through force. But China is a country of 1.4 billion people, there is no way a subsection of 7 million people can force their will of an united 1.4 billion people. To think anything else is just stupid, and as we can see now, it ended in total failure.
In my opinion, they should have tried to change the minds of the 50 million tourists that come to Hong Kong every year. The people who come to Hong Kong are the most pro-Hong Kong people in China, by talking to them and treating them nicely, they could have become Hong Kongs ambassadors in China. Even if that does not lead to the changes they want, at least it would make it almost impossible for China to implement the national security law or other laws they do not want.
I would say no more than half of the 7 million hong konger are in agreement one way or another. But collectively, they have experienced a change in status in the last 40 years. They went from the elite of china to be just average in the hierarchy of chinese cities. While hong kong's progress didn't change much in the last 40 years, the changes in china is night and day.
They made it sound like they were anti china since 1997, but that's not the case. Patriotism was peaked in the 2010s with the olympic and first chinese astronauts visiting. Things only changed in the last 5 to 8 years after they removed the chinese history required subject in high school and made a new required subject call "common knowledge" and started to teach anti chinese/separatist beliefs
sticking with the topic of chinese tourist going to hong kong, these conversations illustrated the changes between hong kong and canton province. person A is a tourist returning from hong kong, person B is his relative/close friend.
in the 1980s:
A: I made a trip to hong kong and I brought back a lot of stuff
B: Wow, I have never seen these things before, is this chocolate? what is this thing that takes pictures? tell me everything about this wonderful place.
in the 1990s:
A: I made a trip to hong kong and I brought back a lot of stuff
B: cool, is this the latest fashion? did you see the celebrities like heavenly four kings? what are those cool and hip people like? tell me everything about fashion, entertainment and trends there
in the 2000s:
A: I made a trip to hong kong and I brought back a lot of stuff
B: well I have been going there from time to time, it's not that much different from guanzhou/shenzhen. I have been to japan/korea/south east asia and japan/korea are cooler place
in the 2010s:
A: I made a trip to hong kong and I brought back a lot of stuff
B: no need to tell me about that, it's no big deal, I have been to and seen the US/Europe/all over the world.
last couple of years:
A: I made a trip to hong kong and I brought back a lot of stuff
B: are you okay? did you see those thugs beating people up? I hope you don't go there just for leisure, it's not safe, don't travel there until after the national security law is passed and no more violent protests
I knew but I'm a bit of a politics and geography geek.
China's a giant and Hong Kong is just a city so unfortunately there's no chance it could maintain its special administrative region status.
what's funny is that macau is even smaller and it's doing just fine. Do you see us closing casinos and hotels in macau over the national security law they have since 2009? are you really a politics and geography geek?
what's funny is that macau is even smaller and it's doing just fine. Do you see us closing casinos and hotels in macau over the national security law they have since 2009? are you really a politics and geography geek?
Hasn't Macau's self rule been gradually reduced too in the last few years?
The point that I'm trying to make is that there's no chance these two can maintain their SAD status, and the considerable personal freedom that their citizens enjoy, in the long term.
Macau's self rule hasn't been reduced. The small city has always been much more pro Beijing because Portuguese rule was regarded as "bully the Chinese", therefore the people were wishing Portuguese rule to end ASAP. Separatism is never talked about in Macau because it cannot survive without help from Mainland China. Gambling and prostitution are banned in mainland China but it allows Macau to be as capitalist or immoral as the West, not banning them in Macau after it was returned to China. It can only do fine with many gamblers, most from mainland China. It is too small and unable to find alternative good ways to earn high income.
Yes there are many disagreements in HK politics. HK is not average in China and the world, the point is mainland China rises, some mainland Chinese became rich but most are still earning income lower than people in developed countries, HK, Macau and Taiwan. In materialistic China, rich people have the pride, ordinary people earning lower than ordinary people in developed countries do not. The changes in Mainland China is big but it is still a developing economy, currently like the past but not present HK, Singapore, South Korea and Taiwan.
There have always been both anti and pro China groups and people in HK. No content in liberal studies include anti China and separatism. HK gov doesn't and will never add an anti China subject, remember gov is not the same as people. Teachers are regarded as unprofessional if they teach their own political views. The more obvious reason why young people are different than the past is increasing westernisation, adding to it is people tend to support politicians of similar age than older politicans they labelled as outdated or old fashioned.
The conversation are mostly correct but many shoppers or traders still went to HK to buy things more easily available in HK where zero tax is added to the price before Covid. It is not like HK has nothing attracting mainlanders like Taiwan. Illegal workers from mainland China is still a problem in HK. Years ago many mainland mothers deliberately gave birth in HK so their children can be HK people until HK gov started measures to prevent this. Most mainland mothers won't do this due to not being wealthy or not living close to HK. The restriction of bringing out large amount of baby milk powder is still valid.
"mainland is better than HK, I won't move there" is not said by all people. There are still many mainlanders or new immigrants from mainland in HK and also Macau. They maybe rich or poor. There must be something attracting them to come.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maomao
I would say no more than half of the 7 million hong konger are in agreement one way or another. But collectively, they have experienced a change in status in the last 40 years. They went from the elite of china to be just average in the hierarchy of chinese cities. While hong kong's progress didn't change much in the last 40 years, the changes in china is night and day.
They made it sound like they were anti china since 1997, but that's not the case. Patriotism was peaked in the 2010s with the olympic and first chinese astronauts visiting. Things only changed in the last 5 to 8 years after they removed the chinese history required subject in high school and made a new required subject call "common knowledge" and started to teach anti chinese/separatist beliefs
sticking with the topic of chinese tourist going to hong kong, these conversations illustrated the changes between hong kong and canton province. person A is a tourist returning from hong kong, person B is his relative/close friend.
in the 1980s:
A: I made a trip to hong kong and I brought back a lot of stuff
B: Wow, I have never seen these things before, is this chocolate? what is this thing that takes pictures? tell me everything about this wonderful place.
in the 1990s:
A: I made a trip to hong kong and I brought back a lot of stuff
B: cool, is this the latest fashion? did you see the celebrities like heavenly four kings? what are those cool and hip people like? tell me everything about fashion, entertainment and trends there
in the 2000s:
A: I made a trip to hong kong and I brought back a lot of stuff
B: well I have been going there from time to time, it's not that much different from guanzhou/shenzhen. I have been to japan/korea/south east asia and japan/korea are cooler place
in the 2010s:
A: I made a trip to hong kong and I brought back a lot of stuff
B: no need to tell me about that, it's no big deal, I have been to and seen the US/Europe/all over the world.
last couple of years:
A: I made a trip to hong kong and I brought back a lot of stuff
B: are you okay? did you see those thugs beating people up? I hope you don't go there just for leisure, it's not safe, don't travel there until after the national security law is passed and no more violent protests
Yes there are many disagreements in HK politics. HK is not average in China and the world, the point is mainland China rises, some mainland Chinese became rich but most are still earning income lower than people in developed countries, HK, Macau and Taiwan. In materialistic China, rich people have the pride, ordinary people earning lower than ordinary people in developed countries do not. The changes in Mainland China is big but it is still a developing economy, currently like the past but not present HK, Singapore, South Korea and Taiwan.
yes, I agree, but I'm not comparing the entire china to hk, china is simply too big. But even if you compare the rest of china to hk, hk is still considered average because it's dead last in living space/condition.
you can be middle or even upper middle class in hk and your owned living space is probably smaller than some extremely poor rural china living in mudd housing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomboy-
There have always been both anti and pro China groups and people in HK. No content in liberal studies include anti China and separatism. HK gov doesn't and will never add an anti China subject, remember gov is not the same as people. Teachers are regarded as unprofessional if they teach their own political views. The more obvious reason why young people are different than the past is increasing westernisation, adding to it is people tend to support politicians of similar age than older politicans they labelled as outdated or old fashioned.
you are giving too much credit to the HK government. Among chinese public officials, they are probably among the highest paid and most useless. The recent covid outbreak there is 100% the government's fault, yet no one got blamed/fired for it. If you remember similar situation happened in other places in china there were public health officials fired.
While they did not add an anti china subject, their education department did allows unprofessional teachers to brainwash students for many years
There are also countless people who works in the hong kong government/public service that are openly anti china/chinese, but they still keep their job
[/quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomboy-
The conversation are mostly correct but many shoppers or traders still went to HK to buy things more easily available in HK where zero tax is added to the price before Covid. It is not like HK has nothing attracting mainlanders like Taiwan. Illegal workers from mainland China is still a problem in HK. Years ago many mainland mothers deliberately gave birth in HK so their children can be HK people until HK gov started measures to prevent this. Most mainland mothers won't do this due to not being wealthy or not living close to HK. The restriction of bringing out large amount of baby milk powder is still valid.
I have to disagree with this, 5 years ago maybe. but not anymore, even before covid.
the other cities in the greater bay area has higher desirable living conditions already. Rich mainland chinese are only buying real estates in hong kong as investment rather than living.
on the other hand, yes there are still issues with smugglers of goods from both sides. but that is just people trying to save a few buck here or there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomboy-
"mainland is better than HK, I won't move there" is not said by all people. There are still many mainlanders or new immigrants from mainland in HK and also Macau. They maybe rich or poor. There must be something attracting them to come.
I see there are both positives and negatives in both mainland and hk. It's not like it's freely open border both ways. One can't really immigrate to HK unless you family there, or get a job there. It's easier to move to mainland from HK, but one would still lose out on many social benefits only offered to mainland citizens.
As many have found out, the best financial decision one could make is to work in hong kong (higher wages there) and live in the mainland (lower cost of living).
Hasn't Macau's self rule been gradually reduced too in the last few years?
The point that I'm trying to make is that there's no chance these two can maintain their SAD status, and the considerable personal freedom that their citizens enjoy, in the long term.
neither macau nor hong kong's self rule had been gradually reduced. So I don't know where you're going with this.
both have SAD status. I'm not sure how one would reduce the self rule of these SAD regions, do you have any examples?
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