Should the U.S. support an independent Taiwan? (life, train)

[Yanagisawa]

Originally Posted by pennyone

taiwan chooses to do something as stupid as declare independence?

I can't understand why.

I would not call it stupid if Okinawa people made their own decision and declared independence.

Scottish independence referendum, 2014

[pennyone]

Originally Posted by Yanagisawa

I can't understand why.

I would not call it stupid if Okinawa people made their own decision and declared independence.

Scottish independence referendum, 2014

Except that Okinawa was conquered by japan, and was never ever japanese before that. Taiwan was settled by Chinese fishermen, and it became a prefecture under the Qing after the last Ming forces were destroyed on that island (and the Ming forces booted out the Dutch interlopers before that). Of course Okinawa should have a chance at independence. I think China should actively support those in Okinawa who want to because Okinawa's culture is closer to China than japan, and it was a tribute bearing state of China called LiuQiu. Scotland too if it wants to leave the UK (I don't care). But Taiwan is under the government of the Republic of China, and it remains "Chinese" to this day. Taiwan was under the Qing, then it was ceded to japan under the treaty of Shimonoseki. But after WWII, under the Potsdam and Cairo declaration/agreement and the terms of the unconditional surrender of japan, it was returned to the ROC. And it remains under the ROC today. Taiwan as an island has never been "independent"; it has always been a part of a Chinese government, or a japanese government.

Every citizen of "taiwan" island today is technically "Chinese"..because they hold a passport that reads "The Republic of China." They are all Chinese. They simply do not live under the political jurisdiction of the PRC.

[Ruth4Truth]

Taiwan was first settled by the ancestors of the Austronesian peoples. They were not Chinese. Today's Okinawans are related to the Ainu, and share some aspects of traditional religion with the Ainu.

[6oo9]

The debate may not be around "should" but around "would": Taiwan would be on China's side if there is a war between US and China. When Japan invaded China during WWII, the nationalists and CCP were united against the outside force. China was invaded by Western power for centuries and that could be the driving force behind it.

With that said, Taiwan is not a true US ally.

[pennyone]

Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth

Taiwan was first settled by the ancestors of the Austronesian peoples. They were not Chinese. Today's Okinawans are related to the Ainu, and share some aspects of traditional religion with the Ainu.

Nobody is referencing the Native folks here, just like no one is referencing the Native Nations when we refer to the US. The Anglo-Saxon English, Dutch and French settlers were the beginning of what would later become the United States through the colonial and then the Republican period. In the same way, the conversation is about the sinification of taiwan, and how it became very much a Chinese entity before it was ceded to japan as a booty of war. It has never been "independent" since that period through the present day. It is only "independent" in so much as a Republic of China is an "independent" country. By itself, the island of taiwan is just a geographical name, not a political, let alone an "independent" political entity.

[willister]

Originally Posted by txjl123

The debate may not be around "should" but around "would": Taiwan would be on China's side if there is a war between US and China. When Japan invaded China during WWII, the nationalists and CCP were united against the outside force. China was invaded by Western power for centuries and that could be the driving force behind it.

With that said, Taiwan is not a true US ally.

Are there any true allies? I only see the "five eyes" as true allies, pretty much the British Domain - UK, US, Australia, Canada and NZ.

Okinawa basically won't leave Japan just like how Quebec won't leave Canada and Scotland won't leave the UK. Economically it would be a drastic move and these areas are worst off in terms of employment etc.

[greenehaven]

Originally Posted by OwlAndSparrow

I wouldn't be completely shocked if Taiwan either remained sort of its own thing for the rest of my lifetime or decided on a peaceful reunification in the distant future

1/17/16 Reuters
Taiwan must abandon 'hallucination' of independence, warns Chinese media

After Tsai Ing-wen’s election as president, Xinhua warns that any moves towards independence would be ‘poison’ for the future of the island nation

Taiwan should abandon its “hallucinations” about pushing for independence and any moves towards it would be a “poison”, Chinese state-run media said after a landslide victory for the island’s independence-leaning opposition.

Tsai Ing-wen and her Democratic Progressive Party (DPP) won a convincing victory in both presidential and parliamentary elections on Saturday, in what could usher in a new round of instability with China, which claims self-ruled Taiwan as its own.

Tsai pledged to maintain peace with her island’s neighbour, while China’s Taiwan affairs office warned it would oppose any move towards independence and that Beijing was determined to defend the country’s sovereignty.

Reacting to Tsai’s victory, China’s government-controlled media used noticeably less shrill language than that levelled at Chen Shui-bian, the DPP’s last president, and noted her pledges for peace and to maintain the “status quo” with China.

But the official Xinhua news agency also warned any moves towards independence were like a “poison” that would cause Taiwan to perish.

“If there is no peace and stability in the Taiwan Strait, Taiwan’s new authority will find the sufferings of the people it wishes to resolve on the economy, livelihood and its youth will be as useless as looking for fish in a tree,” it said.

China called Chen Shui-bian, who led Taiwan from 2000-2008, a troublemaker and a saboteur of cross-strait ties, even as he tried to maintain stable relations with Beijing.

The Global Times, an influential tabloid published by the ruling Communist Party’s official People’s Daily newspaper, said in an editorial that if Tsai’s administration sought to “cross the red line” like Chen, Taiwan would “meet a dead end”.

“We hope Tsai can lead the DPP out of the hallucinations of Taiwan independence, and contribute to the peaceful and common development between Taiwan and the mainland,” it added.

In Taiwan, the China-friendly China Times called on Tsai to be a “dove for cross strait peace“.

“Peace across the Taiwan Strait is the most important external factor for Taiwan’s stable development,” it said in an editorial.

Tsai’s DPP also made huge gains in the parliamentary polls to gain an absolute majority with 68 seats in the 113-seat legislature, giving her administration a far stronger policy-making lever over the next four years, and potentially more leverage over Beijing on cross-strait deals and affairs.

China’s foreign ministry said: “There is only one China in the world, the mainland and Taiwan both belong to one China and China’s sovereignty and territorial integrity will not brook being broken up.

“The results of the Taiwan region election does not change this basic fact and the consensus of the international community.”

Tsai has been thrust into one of Asia’s toughest and most dangerous jobs, with China pointing hundreds of missiles at the island it claims, decades after the losing Nationalists fled from Mao Zedong’s Communists to Taiwan in the Chinese civil war in 1949.

The White House said on Saturday it congratulated Tsai and said the United States maintained a “profound interest” in peace between Taiwan and China.

Originally Posted by Yanagisawa

Taiwan, Republic of China, claims the Mainland China is its territory

At least until June of this year or when the DDP strikes it down ...

Originally Posted by theunbrainwashed

US needs to not stick its nose where it doesn't belong.

Originally Posted by tigerbalm1985

China's Anti-Secession Law states the use of force, if applicable, if Taiwan officially declares to the rest of the world and the international community that it is an independent nation. So Taiwan is independent in all, except name.

[Yanagisawa]

I can't stop laughing.

Compare the two below:

Originally Posted by pennyone

Except that Okinawa was conquered by japan, and was never ever japanese before that.

Originally Posted by pennyone

Taiwan was settled by Chinese fishermen, and it became a prefecture under the Qing after the last Ming forces were destroyed on that island (and the Ming forces booted out the Dutch interlopers before that).

You wrote as if there were no human beings prior to Chinese in Taiwan.

Taiwanese aborigines

Taiwanese aborigines (Chinese: 臺灣原住民; pinyin: táiwānyuánzhùmín; Wade–Giles: t'ai2-wan1-yüan2-chu4-min2; Pe̍h-ōe-jī: Tâi-ôan-gôan chū-bîn; literally: "Taiwanese original inhabitants") is the term commonly applied to the indigenous peoples of Taiwan, who number more than 530,000 and constitute nearly 2.3% of the island's population. Recent research suggests their ancestors may have been living on Taiwan for approximately 8,000 years before a major Han immigration began in the 17th century.

Do you want to educate us that Taiwanese aborigines voted and wanted to become a part of China?

[pennyone]

Originally Posted by Yanagisawa

I can't stop laughing.

Compare the two below:





You wrote as if there were no human beings prior to Chinese in Taiwan.

Taiwanese aborigines

Taiwanese aborigines (Chinese: 臺灣原住民; pinyin: táiwānyuánzhùmín; Wade–Giles: t'ai2-wan1-yüan2-chu4-min2; Pe̍h-ōe-jī: Tâi-ôan-gôan chū-bîn; literally: "Taiwanese original inhabitants") is the term commonly applied to the indigenous peoples of Taiwan, who number more than 530,000 and constitute nearly 2.3% of the island's population. Recent research suggests their ancestors may have been living on Taiwan for approximately 8,000 years before a major Han immigration began in the 17th century.

Do you want to educate us that Taiwanese aborigines voted and wanted to become a part of China?

Why don't you educate us about the Okinawans, since the japanese annexed them in the late 1800's? LOL What a joke. I never said it was an empty island. I stated that the Chinese settled on it. It is your simple mind that drew that conclusion all by its delusional self. Just like US textbooks state how English and French settlers arrived on the North American scene did not imply that it was "empty." Only you drew that ignorant conclusion, so you go and educate yourself. ROTFLOL.

[Yanagisawa]

Originally Posted by pennyone

Why don't you educate us about the Okinawans, since the japanese annexed them in the late 1800's? LOL What a joke. I never said it was an empty island. I stated that the Chinese settled on it. It is your simple mind that drew that conclusion all by its delusional self. Just like US textbooks state how English and French settlers arrived on the North American scene did not imply that it was "empty." Only you drew that ignorant conclusion, so you go and educate yourself. ROTFLOL.

Chinese settled and then? They were accepted peacefully?

Educate me.