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I think the degree to which atheists would "play along" at the funerals of loved ones would be proportional to the degree of love and respect they have for the loved one and the others present. A funeral is not about YOU, Troop . . . so I suspect that most people who genuinely care about those involved would "play along." There is no physical damage done and you don't believe in anything spiritual anyway. Of course, if everything is always about you and how you feel . . .
Explain where this "play along" ends there mystic. Take communion, make the sign of the cross, scream halleluiah, speak in tongues, or just be respectful.
OBTW, funerals are for the living, the dead ain't there, or even care.
And it is not about how you feel, but principles that some people will not compromise on at all. I find religion so counter to reason and intelligent that I will not pretend to even participate. When they pray, I do not lower my head, I do not close my eyes, but I do remain silent. And there are usually several other people doing the same.
I think the degree to which atheists would "play along" at the funerals of loved ones would be proportional to the degree of love and respect they have for the loved one and the others present. A funeral is not about YOU, Troop . . . so I suspect that most people who genuinely care about those involved would "play along." There is no physical damage done and you don't believe in anything spiritual anyway. Of course, if everything is always about you and how you feel . . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville Native
And it is not about how you feel, but principles that some people will not compromise on at all. I find religion so counter to reason and intelligent that I will not pretend to even participate. When they pray, I do not lower my head, I do not close my eyes, but I do remain silent. And there are usually several other people doing the same.
I get that it is all about YOU and your principles, Ashe . . . I was not confused about it. I just know many atheists who care more about the feelings and sensibilities of their grieving families or friends than about their own high and mighty principles. It has been my experience that when someone's inconsiderate actions are professed to be in defense of principle . . . it is typically pure self-centeredness.
I get that it is all about YOU and your principles, Ashe . . . I was not confused about it. I just know many atheists who care more about the feelings and sensibilities of their grieving families or friends than about their own high and mighty principles. It has been my experience that when someone's inconsiderate actions are professed to be in defense of principle . . . it is typically pure self-centeredness.
Who are these hypothetical atheists you rage against? When called out, it becomes "the many I know", but you claim to also know an imaginary deity. I really doubt you know any atheist that would demonstrate such behavior, for the simple reason atheists have not been taught the ignorance and hate or christianity since they clinging to the rails on their crib.
The most egregious disrespect I have witnessed toward the family of the deceased are also the most arrogant and vocal fundie theists, specifically pentecostals.
Remember mysty, if you won't stand for your principles, then you have none that matter.
Last edited by Asheville Native; 01-30-2014 at 11:40 PM..
The most egregious disrespect I have witnessed toward the family of the deceased are also the most arrogant and vocal fundie theists, specifically pentecostals.
This right here is the honest truth, I've witnessed it myself. My own father has actually disturbed the funeral of someone by arguing with the Pastor about where the deceased was spending "eternity". Unbelievable I know, but it's true he disrupted a damn funeral just because the Pastor was saying the poor fellow who died from cancer was in heaven and my Dad disagreed with that. Over the years he has really embarrassed all of us by his outbursts and rants about how evil something was or how wrong someone's interpretation of scripture was, even getting written up in the paper for his rant about how immoral and evil the high school play was at the time.
Egregious disrespect is not coming from someone who is not religious, it's always coming from the fundies who can't keep their damn mouths shut, even during such a sad and difficult time.
Egregious disrespect is not coming from someone who is not religious, it's always coming from the fundies who can't keep their damn mouths shut, even during such a sad and difficult time.
I would separate the "egregious disrespect" from any labels, North. The description attaches to specific persons (of any stripe . . . atheist or theist) who are self-absorbed, self-righteous (not just religiously), and disrespectful of anyone else's feelings . . especially those who are grieving.
My own father has actually disturbed the funeral of someone by arguing with the Pastor about where the deceased was spending "eternity". Unbelievable I know, but it's true he disrupted a damn funeral just because the Pastor was saying the poor fellow who died from cancer was in heaven and my Dad disagreed with that. Over the years he has really embarrassed all of us by his outbursts and rants about how evil something was or how wrong someone's interpretation of scripture was, even getting written up in the paper for his rant about how immoral and evil the high school play was at the time.[/quote]
My wife has an uncle who is a hellfire-and-brimstone type, who someone made the mistake of inviting to say a few words at her grandmother's funeral -- no doubt expecting him to have the social sense to take it as the courtesy that it was. Let's just say that her grandfather quietly put out the word that he was persona non grata at all family functions from that day forward. He did NOT make an appearance at the grandfather's funeral years later.
I haven't yet attended a religious funeral. Well, very religious, anyway. My paternal grandmother was orthodox and all I remember was one priest speaking while a second priest with no arms swinging some sort of object around her coffin. I should probably ask my sister to make sure I'm not imagining that ...
My grandfather was even less religious. But I do remember that at his funeral service, in the church/mortuary place, I was too upset to walk by his coffin. He'd died of cancer at home and even though I'd seen him shortly after his death it was still too hard for me to look at how skinny he'd become. He didn't look like the grandfather I wanted to remember. But I was conflicted about walking by for one last time. I figured I'd have time after the service, thinking maybe I'd feel stronger then, but then the priest started speaking and saying that they'll close the coffin right then for some reason I don't remember exactly - but I thought it had to do with something religious. Some sort of tradition/ritual. And I was upset and angry, because to me funerals are for the living and their grief, not for some ritual of the dead person. I never did get a chance to see him again, and I do regret that.
If ever I'm asked to bow my head in a group prayer situation, I usually do so for a few moments, and either remain like that or raise my head if it feels like it's going to take a while. It doesn't feel natural to bow my head if I'm in contemplation; I usually tilt my head and look into the distance. And yeah, there's usually one or two other people who don't bow their heads, either.
So, my grandmother died last week. In my eyes, it was without question for the best. She had suffered so long and fought so hard without triumph that it seemed so cruel for her to keep hanging on. In a sense, I was relieved for her. I went to the funeral this past week and I'm quite certain most of the members of my family felt very much the same - including my grandfather. However, my grandfather was still very visibly upset. After all, they had been married for close to 64 years.
My grandmother had never really mentioned her own religious beliefs for as long as I'd known her but had requested a Catholic wake and funeral. I've been spared the good fortune for most of my life not to have attended many funerals and, thus, this was the first I'd experienced a Catholic funeral.
My second husband was Catholic and they lived in a *very* small - all Catholic town where his dad was a member of the Knights of Columbus, and he and his wife were involved in every other possible religion-based organization imaginable. When his father died, there must have been 15 different viewings, novenas, etc., etc., ad infinitum. I didn't think they were EVER going to bury the poor guy.
There are a lot of people who need "closure" when other people die. I think the whole thing is barbaric and just unnecessary. My dad and my mom were both cremated and didn't even have a service. It's what they wanted. But it wasn't up to you. If you don't like what's going on you can just not go. I don't go to funerals because I don't like them. It has nothing to do with the love or respect I felt toward the person.
I would separate the "egregious disrespect" from any labels, North. The description attaches to specific persons (of any stripe . . . atheist or theist) who are self-absorbed, self-righteous (not just religiously), and disrespectful of anyone else's feelings . . especially those who are grieving.
Oh my, that's rich Mystic accusing others of being self-absorbed.
Who are these hypothetical atheists you rage against? When called out, it becomes "the many I know", but you claim to also know an imaginary deity. I really doubt you know any atheist that would demonstrate such behavior, for the simple reason atheists have not been taught the ignorance and hate or christianity since they clinging to the rails on their crib.
The most egregious disrespect I have witnessed toward the family of the deceased are also the most arrogant and vocal fundie theists, specifically pentecostals.
Remember mysty, if you won't stand for your principles, then you have none that matter.
Before standing on principle . . . it is important to make certain the principles actually matter in the grand scheme of things, Ashe. Standing on pointless or capricious principles is just foolish self-righteousness.
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Over the years he has really embarrassed all of us by his outbursts and rants about how evil something was or how wrong someone's interpretation of scripture was, even getting written up in the paper for his rant about how immoral and evil the high school play was at the time.
