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I would separate the "egregious disrespect" from any labels, North. The description attaches to specific persons (of any stripe . . . atheist or theist) who are self-absorbed, self-righteous (not just religiously), and disrespectful of anyone else's feelings . . especially those who are grieving.
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Originally Posted by Asheville Native
Oh my, that's rich Mystic accusing others of being self-absorbed.
I accuse no one . . . but if the shoe fits . . . If you do not care about the feelings of your family and close friends at such poignant moments in life . . . you must feel very isolated.
First, let me extend my sincere condolences on the loss of your beloved grandmother. I was raised Catholic, and attended 12 years of Catholic school. We learned those prayers by repetition and constant memorization by the Nuns in the 1960's. They could be very persuasive. I moved away from it right after HS graduation, because I felt I was going to a funeral every time I went to Mass (but that is not to say I don't respect those who follow Catholicism) It's just not for me. I know my parents both had Catholic funerals, even though they never went to church, but I must say that the priests were very comforting in both situations and I was very appreciative. I don't quite get why they would force you to take Communion though.
I accuse no one . . . but if the shoe fits . . . If you do not care about the feelings of your family and close friends at such poignant moments in life . . . you must feel very isolated.
You keep insinuating that I somehow have insulted or hurt the feelings of the more immediate family, but you have yet to point out specifically where I did that. I know this family, they know I am non-religious, and if that insults them, oh well. Why in hell would they expect me to go through a ritual that is only for the faithful of their faith?
I said I was respectful, and had I been in Troop's place where the crowd was herded to the communion buffet, I would have merely stepped back and let others pass. OBTW, the wife would also step out of the way to let others pass. My wife's cousin is a bible thumping fundy Southern Baptist, didn't partake in the Catholic rituals either.
You are so self-absorbed and ego driven to always be right that you are making the assumption the family would be insulted because I didn't follow the hocus pocus of their religious rituals which they know I don't follow, without any knowledge of the sympathy and support I offered on a personal level to the immediate family.
Please explain how not taking communion is going to insult or hurt the feelings of the family. Would you expect a Jew that was a close friend of the family, or even a family member to take communion? How about a Buddhist, or a Muslim?
I accuse no one . . . but if the shoe fits . . . If you do not care about the feelings of your family and close friends at such poignant moments in life . . . you must feel very isolated.
That's kind of my entire point behind starting this thread, Mystic. I do care deeply about my loved ones. It pained me very much to see them hurting after my grandmother's death. I did not want to make some sort of statement about my own personal beliefs. I didn't think it was the time, the place, or the right atmosphere for such a thing. Most people would agree.
On the other hand, I felt very isolated and insulated from everyone else. Sure, I could have gone along and said "Thanks be to God," or made the sign of the cross, or something like that. But, my view of Bible God is one in which I feel that even if he did exist, I wouldn't worship or even begin to mimic worship to him. I've given this analogy before but the best way I can describe the awkward feeling is sort of like when a plumber comes to your house to fix a busted pipe or the HVAC guy comes over in the middle of July to fix your air conditioner...
You're entirely reliant on this person (in some cases, in a pathetically helpless way - as though we could never have survived without air conditioning or indoor plumbing) and the last thing you want to do is make the guy angry or have the one available plumber in town leave without fixing your stuff. Then the guy cracks a racist joke or says something racist as though you're supposed to be in on it and completely agree with him because you're some middle-class white guy... Immediately there is a conflict... It's a decision of "OK. Make a stand. Kick the guy out of the house and wait on someone else who isn't a bigot to come and fix this indoor plumbing so I don't have to build an outhouse..." Or....... "Just bite your tongue. Kind of act like you get the joke and try to change the subject. I'll have plumbing in no time. Maybe call his boss after he leaves."
So, here I am at this funeral, sort of stuck amidst concepts and ideas that are some of the most vile and ignorant ideas in all humankind, and then there's my grieving family on the other side who are all participating. I suppose it didn't help that I have particular disdain for the Catholic Church but I must admit that I tried very, very hard to cast all that aside and not let that show. My accidentally taking communion is not something I did with malicious intent... It just sort of happened...
I felt like there was very fair compromise in all of this. I stood when everyone stood. Sat when everyone sat. Didn't make a peep when prayers were being said and I gave everyone THEIR personal way of grieving or accepting the loss (whether through prayer or otherwise) without interruption - because it really is about the rest of my family too - not the church who I could care less about. I dealt with things in my own way. I reflected on the good times I had with my grandmother and realized that I was happy she was no longer suffering and I was allowed to do so. I really feel like what I did was something that Miss Manners or Dear Abby would agree with... I was curious, though, how much (or little) other atheists do when it comes to things of this nature.
That's kind of my entire point behind starting this thread, Mystic. I do care deeply about my loved ones. It pained me very much to see them hurting after my grandmother's death. I did not want to make some sort of statement about my own personal beliefs. I didn't think it was the time, the place, or the right atmosphere for such a thing. Most people would agree.
On the other hand, I felt very isolated and insulated from everyone else. Sure, I could have gone along and said "Thanks be to God," or made the sign of the cross, or something like that. But, my view of Bible God is one in which I feel that even if he did exist, I wouldn't worship or even begin to mimic worship to him. I've given this analogy before but the best way I can describe the awkward feeling is sort of like when a plumber comes to your house to fix a busted pipe or the HVAC guy comes over in the middle of July to fix your air conditioner...
You're entirely reliant on this person (in some cases, in a pathetically helpless way - as though we could never have survived without air conditioning or indoor plumbing) and the last thing you want to do is make the guy angry or have the one available plumber in town leave without fixing your stuff. Then the guy cracks a racist joke or says something racist as though you're supposed to be in on it and completely agree with him because you're some middle-class white guy... Immediately there is a conflict... It's a decision of "OK. Make a stand. Kick the guy out of the house and wait on someone else who isn't a bigot to come and fix this indoor plumbing so I don't have to build an outhouse..." Or....... "Just bite your tongue. Kind of act like you get the joke and try to change the subject. I'll have plumbing in no time. Maybe call his boss after he leaves."
So, here I am at this funeral, sort of stuck amidst concepts and ideas that are some of the most vile and ignorant ideas in all humankind, and then there's my grieving family on the other side who are all participating. I suppose it didn't help that I have particular disdain for the Catholic Church but I must admit that I tried very, very hard to cast all that aside and not let that show. My accidentally taking communion is not something I did with malicious intent... It just sort of happened...
I felt like there was very fair compromise in all of this. I stood when everyone stood. Sat when everyone sat. Didn't make a peep when prayers were being said and I gave everyone THEIR personal way of grieving or accepting the loss (whether through prayer or otherwise) without interruption - because it really is about the rest of my family too - not the church who I could care less about. I dealt with things in my own way. I reflected on the good times I had with my grandmother and realized that I was happy she was no longer suffering and I was allowed to do so. I really feel like what I did was something that Miss Manners or Dear Abby would agree with... I was curious, though, how much (or little) other atheists do when it comes to things of this nature.
I completely understand, Troop . . . and I was not referring to your wonderfully considerate actions. I have similar antipathy for the Catholic hierarchy . . . but some meager hope of reform because of the current Pope. John the 23rd tried and mostly failed. It is a monstrous and evil hierarchy supported by a massive bureaucracy. Many of the archbishops are still ignoring and covering for the pedophile priests. You correctly decided that it was not about the Catholic Church . . . but about your loved ones and their grief. I have noting but respect for your actions, Troop.
I'm amazed that Catholics encouraged someone they didn't know to take communion. When I went to a mixed Catholic-other wedding a few years ago, someone made it clear to us heathens that communion was only "If you're Catholic and in a state of grace" meaning you've gone to confession recently. Maybe I rolled my eyes at all that, but I was a guest, and the food was OK (I understand that communion wine is pretty poor stuff, so no loss there). An interesting innovation, they have altar girls these days, but that Virgin Mary business still goes on in full force. Well, it was just the once, and I don't need to do it regularly.
Edited to add that at that Catholic wedding, the bride had been married before and had got an annulment (I don't know if her kids were embarrassed to be told that their parents had never been married, at least as far as God was concerned). That was really a cause for some eye-rolling.
Last edited by Amontillado; 02-02-2014 at 10:03 AM..
I'm amazed that Catholics encouraged someone they didn't know to take communion. When I went to a mixed Catholic-other wedding a few years ago, someone made it clear to us heathens that communion was only "If you're Catholic and in a state of grace" meaning you've gone to confession recently. Maybe I rolled my eyes at all that, but I was a guest, and the food was OK (I understand that communion wine is pretty poor stuff, so no loss there). An interesting innovation, they have altar girls these days, but that Virgin Mary business still goes on in full force. Well, it was just the once, and I don't need to do it regularly.
Edited to add that at that Catholic wedding, the bride had been married before and had got an annulment (I don't know if her kids were embarrassed to be told that their parents had never been married, at least as far as God was concerned). That was really a cause for some eye-rolling.
I don't think I'm making myself clear enough. I'm not sure if I was "directed" or "forced" to go take communion or if I just misunderstood the situation. The woman came to my aisle, pointed straight ahead and everyone stood up. I was on the end of my aisle. In the aisle in front of me, everyone had already stood up and proceeded forward. I didn't realize they were taking communion. I assumed they were all getting up to leave. By the time I realized what was happening, it was too late. I was in line and the line was moving forward.
My father was a WWII Airborne vet. He said when the Catholic chaplains came to give communion before parachute jumps a LOT of non-Catholics got in line. Including him. He wasn't an atheist but he sure as heck wasn't a Catholic.
Odd things happen during life. Consider this an interesting experience. You have a story to tell in your old age.
Last edited by DewDropInn; 02-02-2014 at 02:38 PM..
I would separate the "egregious disrespect" from any labels, North. The description attaches to specific persons (of any stripe . . . atheist or theist) who are self-absorbed, self-righteous (not just religiously), and disrespectful of anyone else's feelings . . especially those who are grieving.
I don't feel I need to separate anything, it's been my experience over 50 years and I'm sticking to it. The religious are the problem, not the other way around. Asheville Native is right, not participating in religious rituals is not disrespecting anyone. In fact, I would say it's downright respectful not to participate in something you don't believe in rather than to pretend you do for the sake of not causing waves or eyebrows to be raised. It's just not a big deal in the grand scheme of things to not participate in such things. And it is not disrespectful.
Now someone who causes a scene at a funeral, whether religious or not, is one sick puppy in my book.
I don't think I'm making myself clear enough. I'm not sure if I was "directed" or "forced" to go take communion or if I just misunderstood the situation. The woman came to my aisle, pointed straight ahead and everyone stood up. I was on the end of my aisle. In the aisle in front of me, everyone had already stood up and proceeded forward. I didn't realize they were taking communion. I assumed they were all getting up to leave. By the time I realized what was happening, it was too late. I was in line and the line was moving forward.
And that's how an Atheist took communion.
The full blown catholic funeral I was at was over a year ago, something was said that made it clear that communion was going down. Parading out the gold goblets also was a clue.
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