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I'm sure now there will be atheists who claim that all that necessary hard work is being done by atheists, even though they are a minority of the population. Fantasy worlds.
Yes, a fantasy world you set up to shoot down. A common tactic of yours. This is why we argue with you, because you rely on too many straw men to attack atheism.
No proof for any of this. Your freewill argument is useless when considering that this mythical god knows the future and still chose to create humans knowing he would torture most for eternity. No red flag there?
What would 'proof' matter? Even satan has FULL proof/evidence/knowledge of God, yet he still chooses to DISOBEY and separate himself from God. Separating oneself from God, who is all good & love, is the 'torture' one ends with, especially for a (hu)man who fails to seek/ask forgiveness that ALSO is freely given to man. A 'proof' that FORCES you to believe/obey is tantamount to making you a slave - this is never any part of Gods plan and opposite of it.
Being united with God is what He wills of every one of us - and this generation is fortunate to have been provided THE WAY to do such - even if one stumbles yet retains faith, hope, & love to end with such.
What would 'proof' matter? Even satan has FULL proof/evidence/knowledge of God, yet he still chooses to DISOBEY and separate himself from God. Separating oneself from God, who is all good & love, is the 'torture' one ends with, especially for a (hu)man who fails to seek/ask forgiveness that ALSO is freely given to man. A 'proof' that FORCES you to believe/obey is tantamount to making you a slave - this is never any part of Gods plan and opposite of it.
Being united with God is what He wills of every one of us - and this generation is fortunate to have been provided THE WAY to do such - even if one stumbles yet retains faith, hope, & love to end with such.
For all the lovely and wonderful deeds a person does that would make someone worthy of citizen of the year award, it seems like there is a ton of work being done under the surface that is not being shown. Atheists love to criticize religious people, but the fact is that religious people make up the majority of the population. And it was probably religious people who built their homes and who brought their food to them from the fields. But those kinds of things are just so mundane and not even worth mentioning.
I'm sure now there will be atheists who claim that all that necessary hard work is being done by atheists, even though they are a minority of the population. Fantasy worlds.
Oh come on. You are getting desperate. People do their jobs as part of society. And you want to give Christianity the credit for that? Have you any idea how lame that sounds?
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Originally Posted by old_cold
Are you insinuating that if all those workers weren't religious, the work wouldn't have gotten done?
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Originally Posted by OzzyRules
I hadn't thought of that, but you bring up a good question.
Now that's good enough that I withdraw my post above. You are willing to consider the point. Many a Believer would have brushed it aside, dismissed it with the Bias card or changed the subject. Let's see how you respond.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules
Maybe someone should start a thread showing the statistics of professions held by atheists. But I think this will probably be swept under the rug. Or an atheist will hire someone to sweep for them.
Ah. Not so good. Arguing (and it fielding it as a refutation of the point) that atheists do not contribute anything and only believers do anything useful and productive. Whether or not any such stats are available, you are dismissing any evidence, in advance, as being covered up and lied about by the atheists, just to cover yourself against refutation.
I think I have to reinstate my post above.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 11-05-2018 at 09:25 AM..
What would 'proof' matter? Even satan has FULL proof/evidence/knowledge of God, yet he still chooses to DISOBEY and separate himself from God. Separating oneself from God, who is all good & love, is the 'torture' one ends with, especially for a (hu)man who fails to seek/ask forgiveness that ALSO is freely given to man. A 'proof' that FORCES you to believe/obey is tantamount to making you a slave - this is never any part of Gods plan and opposite of it.
Being united with God is what He wills of every one of us - and this generation is fortunate to have been provided THE WAY to do such - even if one stumbles yet retains faith, hope, & love to end with such.
Your point about Satan - that it is inconceivable that he should have instigated a rebellion he could not win for a job that he could not do and persuaded a load of angels to go along with this - is the reason that we do not credit your claim. Even without the crystal -clear evidence in the Bible (if one has their eyes and mind open) that Satan was simply God's gofor.
You at least seem to distance yourself from eternal torment and opt instead for 'Separation'. Well CCCp, Separation sounds great to me, so your selling -point rather fails. Unless Separation entails some kind of torment, in which case your tactical shift away from Bad God is back to Square 1.
Yes it is! Thanks for noticing
I've spent 50+ years searching and resisting - hopefully this time will stick, & 'keep me damp' forever.
And just to tie this back into the OP's original post, the bible is a compilation (using mans imperfect words/language) to convey the Will of The Living God, so that man, can eventually understand it, and participate in it. Deep understanding & confidence comes to those that truly seek it!
Well, that's partly telling us how many are Christians. It doesn't tell us How. I mean, the process. Sitting down and reading the Bible? By the time you are as far as Judges, you are having to dismiss so much Will of God as 'imperfect human' stuff, that you surely need to have been sucked into Biblefaith before you even picked the book up.
Yes, I'm curious. I always like to read deconversion -stories (we all need a bit of Bias -confirmation ) but I'd love to hear your story of what sorta atheist you were, and how your fifty years of study led you to Faith in a Book half of which you had to dismiss as human error. I promise i won't crit a single word of it
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 11-05-2018 at 11:26 AM..
Your point about Satan - that it is inconceivable that he should have instigated a rebellion he could not win for a job that he could not do and persuaded a load of angels to go along with this - is the reason that we do not credit your claim. Even without the crystal -clear evidence in the Bible (if one has their eyes and mind open) that Satan was simply God's gofor.
The every detail of how or why satan fell, is info not necessary for man to understand Gods plan for our salvation - only that it did happen (Jude 6) . I dunno, maybe he(they) insisted on knowing parts of Gods plan that he(they) were not privy to know, or knew and refused to cooperate?? doesn't really matter.
You at least seem to distance yourself from eternal torment and opt instead for 'Separation'. Well CCCp, Separation sounds great to me, so your selling -point rather fails. Unless Separation entails some kind of torment, in which case your tactical shift away from Bad God is back to Square 1.
Sorry if that wasnt clear; maybe this will help: From what I understand of God, He being everything that is good, separation from Him would leave one in state of total deprivation of everything that is good - I dunno, maybe take away everything that is good is kinda like being suffocated in no space in total darkness no sound no hope no love hatred for everyone kinda like being buried alive without ever dying - total madness of mind, forever - and blaming everybody else except yourself who made that choice.
This is one I really DONT want to know the exact details of
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Your point about Satan - that it is inconceivable that he should have instigated a rebellion he could not win for a job that he could not do and persuaded a load of angels to go along with this - is the reason that we do not credit your claim. Even without the crystal -clear evidence in the Bible (if one has their eyes and mind open) that Satan was simply God's gofor.
CCCp
Quote:
The every detail of how or why satan fell, is info not necessary for man to understand Gods plan for our salvation - only that it did happen (Jude 6) . I dunno, maybe he(they) insisted on knowing parts of Gods plan that he(they) were not privy to know, or knew and refused to cooperate?? doesn't really matter.
Arq -quote
Quote:
You at least seem to distance yourself from eternal torment and opt instead for 'Separation'. Well CCCp, Separation sounds great to me, so your selling -point rather fails. Unless Separation entails some kind of torment, in which case your tactical shift away from Bad God is back to Square 1.
CCCp
Quote:
Sorry if that wasnt clear; maybe this will help: From what I understand of God, He being everything that is good, separation from Him would leave one in state of total deprivation of everything that is good - I dunno, maybe take away everything that is good is kinda like being suffocated in no space in total darkness no sound no hope no love hatred for everyone kinda like being buried alive without ever dying - total madness of mind, forever - and blaming everybody else except yourself who made that choice.
This is one I really DONT want to know the exact details of
=CCCyou;53558123]^[/quote] quote function tidied up without prejudice or extra expense.
The first is no more than 'it's in the Bible, so it happened. I don't care whether it makes sense or not".
The second part is - as I said - back to square one. If it is Torment, then it's Hell, if it isn't, then I see no reason to believe the god claims that do not make sense. In fact what does make sense is that no kind of eternal existence would be anything but hell unless your mind, soul or whatever was on a permanent mindlessness drip -feed, and that is as much separation or oblivion or eternal death or non -existence as makes no difference. Eternal life is not a reward, it is a short - sighted escape from the fear of death.
I wouldn't mind an afterlife - but not an eternal one. I wouldn't mind a few rebirths, but only if I can remember what I did here, or it might as well be somebody else. It WOULD be somebody else. Since I see no really convincing evidence for either of those, Oblivion seems a merciful escape from the threats of either hell or heaven.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 11-05-2018 at 11:29 AM..
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Not so good. Arguing (and it fielding it as a refutation of the point) that atheists do not contribute anything and only believers do anything useful and productive. Whether or not any such stats are available, you are dismissing any evidence, in advance, as being covered up and lied about by the atheists, just to cover yourself against refutation. 
Deep understanding & confidence comes to those that truly seek it!
) but I'd love to hear your story of what sorta atheist you were, and how your fifty years of study led you to Faith in a Book half of which you had to dismiss as human error. I promise i won't crit a single word of it 
