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Pardon me if this is not the correct place for this thread.. but my question is primarily to atheists and their views.
As a "fundamental" Christian, I teach my children to love God and their fellowman, and hope they will serve Him someday and be productive citizens as well.
I've looked at some "anti-theist" websites, have read news reports of happenings which seem to be encroaching on religious freedom, and some of this seems pretty close to me and my family. Am I going to be able to teach my children the way I believe, and will they be afforded this privilege to teach their own as well? I know that a recent case was an instance where a group was actually abusing children, and going against the laws of the land (FLDS).. and I understand this... (altho the manner of action was a big question mark to me. Rescuing girls because they might be abused, rescuing boys because they might grow up to be perpetuators (sp?) of this abuse.. but this thread is not to debate this instance.) Some more relevant instances might be where children are being forced to be taught humanistic views (happening in Europe and dangerously close to happening in my country, Canada, esp. Quebec [Quebec ignoring illegal evangelical schools] [ Mennonites leaving Quebec after government closes school ]).. or children taken from parents because they are not being afforded privileges that their "worldly" peers have, etc.
We are obeying the laws of the land (so far!), and following our "religion" the best we know how, but it seems like the sentiment of this land is growing more and more like the "anti-God" sentiment of communistic Russia a few decades ago.
How far is this going to go? And my question to you is.. how far would you like to see it go? If there was a "painless" way of ensuring that my children would grow up to shun "useless and harmful" belief in God, and rather become "intelligent and progressive" atheists, would you promote this for the betterment of mankind, as you would see it?
Regarding the poll: Atheists or non-religious only vote please, since this is supposed to reflect your view.
And my question to you is.. how far would you like to see it go? If there was a "painless" way of ensuring that my children would grow up to shun "useless and harmful" belief in God, and rather become "intelligent and progressive" atheists, would you promote this for the betterment of mankind, as you would see it?
I would like to see it go as far as having all children taught about religions and cultures that are different from their own. So far, not every child has that education and many will never receive it.
No repression of what their parents want to teach (within legal/ethical limits, of course). No, I would not make sure that every child shuns religion - even if that could be painless. Children (at an appropriate age) need to have more freedom of choice - not less. That's what will make mankind better.
EDIT: I didn't vote on the poll because neither of those choices describe me - although I partially agree with both.
I think children should be allowed to make their own decisions and come to term with their own personal philosophy.
Which to me means exposing them to as many ideas, religions, and philosophies from an early age trying not influence them as is humanly possible anyway. Children are curious by nature and it is only natural to encourage intellectual curiosity.
That is what my Dad did and it gave me a very valuable insight into independent thinking.
As an Atheist I have nothing per se against faith , though I do find the way it is propagated and applied often something which irks me.
I think philosophy and spirituality are very personal and introspective things and issues which we should respect our kids enough to let them make their own decision.
If I had kids I would try to be as open as possible and as inclusive as possible and would encourage them to question and challenge and would try not to influence them. I would not expect them to become atheist simply because I am. That would just be arrogant of me to expect them to be carbon copies of myself and subservient to my own ideas.
If they became Atheists I would like to believe it was because THEY believed it was right for them not because I had in any way influenced them. Likewise if they chose a religious path , then that is also something I would have to respect as baffling as it might prove for me....
The greatest gift we can give our children is respect and independence of mind .
Religion or Atheism means nothing if it comes from "indoctrination" rather than free choice. We do children no favours by trying to gently coerce them into being like us.
I accept that it is a natural inclination but it is still IMO a serious mistake.
I am estranged from my Father now but I owe him a great debt of gratitude for treating me like a sentient human being and for having the courage to allow me my own mind. I carry with me a lot of knowledge about other faiths/ideas because he allowed me to think.
I have no desire to kill religion , I think as individuals we have the intelligence to chose our own path. We should not encourage children to be sheep, to be meekly herded in the general direction of whatever perceived wisdom we happen to think is right.
As long as we provide an open and respectful forum for questions and intellectual curiosity and a safe platform for an enquiring mind I do not see anything wrong with allowing children intellectual freedom.
I would like to see it go as far as having all children taught about religions and cultures that are different from their own. So far, not every child has that education and many will never receive it.
No repression of what their parents want to teach (within legal/ethical limits, of course).No, I would not make sure that every child shuns religion - even if that could be painless. Children (at an appropriate age) need to have more freedom of choice - not less. That's what will make mankind better.
But can this truly happen? I can't see it.. often, religious freedom suffers under the guise of human (especially children's) rights. For example, my children will go to a Christian private school.. How would your view of all children learning about all religions come to fruition without encroaching on freedom of religion?
Quote:
EDIT: I didn't vote on the poll because neither of those choices describe me - although I partially agree with both.
But can this truly happen? I can't see it.. often, religious freedom suffers under the guise of human (especially children's) rights. For example, my children will go to a Christian private school.. How would your view of all children learning about all religions come to fruition without encroaching on freedom of religion?
I went to a public high school. In 9th grade I took a required class called Humanities. This included many social sciences and there was a unit on World Religions. We learned all about them from textbooks and teaching plans - just like any other subject. This was no encroachment on religious freedom. All of the religions classified as "major" were discussed - but never in a philosophical way like, "which of these is the Truth?" - nothing of the sort. Just facts, figures, histories, and other basics. I also was able to take a class called Cultural Anthropology in high school where religions were studied even more in-depth. These 2 classes were invaluable for me and I would like to see all children receive this type of education. Note: I was a Christian at the time, and I was not at all shocked or offended to learn what other kids believed. I already knew that the religions existed - it was nice to learn more about them in a controlled atmosphere.
In the US of A, we have that 1st amendment in the Bill of Rights specifying that the "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." I do not believe most European countries have this protection as the basis of their laws.
Some atheists would like to see all religion abolished and set up web sites arguing for this very thing. But there are web sites promoting Nazism too. There's everything under the sun on the Internet.
The 1st amendment is a pretty powerful protection. Where it gets murky is when claims of religion clash with other laws. The FDLS group is an extreme example and probably isn't instructive to the more mainstream religions.
The main clashes with the law that I see are over education and where does the line get drawn between education and attempts at brainwashing. Also attempts at legislating morality.
I come down firmly on the side of education - dispassionate education in all fields with the intent to teach children not only facts but how to think logically. Teaching about religion is ok but indoctrination of religious tenants is not ok. Parents who home-school should be vetted for competence to teach and their curriculum approved so these children actually get a real education that meets the education standards mandated by the states.
Religious indoctrination and teaching with the intent of convincing children to believe in a particular religion should be separate from their regular education and a voluntary choice of their parents. It should never be inserted into regular science, math, history, etc.
If the children of fundamentalist parents decide not to follow that particular religion or none at all, that should be their decision, especially once they reach the age of legal adulthood. Every citizen of the US has the same rights and that includes the children of fundamentalists.
I am no more in favor of indoctrination of an anti-religion mind set than I am for any religion mind set. Each person has the right to a good education (necessary to support our freedoms and form of participatory government) and to make up his or her own mind whether and how to worship - so long as that form does not harm others.
Those who think they must force others to believe as they do cannot be very confident in their own beliefs.
The 2 poll choices are too extreme, so I'm not picking one either.
Pardon me if this is not the correct place for this thread.. but my question is primarily to atheists and their views.
As a "fundamental" Christian, I teach my children to love God and their fellowman, and hope they will serve Him someday and be productive citizens as well.
I've looked at some "anti-theist" websites, have read news reports of happenings which seem to be encroaching on religious freedom, and some of this seems pretty close to me and my family. Am I going to be able to teach my children the way I believe, and will they be afforded this privilege to teach their own as well? I know that a recent case was an instance where a group was actually abusing children, and going against the laws of the land (FLDS).. and I understand this... (altho the manner of action was a big question mark to me. Rescuing girls because they might be abused, rescuing boys because they might grow up to be perpetuators (sp?) of this abuse.. but this thread is not to debate this instance.) Some more relevant instances might be where children are being forced to be taught humanistic views (happening in Europe and dangerously close to happening in my country, Canada, esp. Quebec [Quebec ignoring illegal evangelical schools] [ Mennonites leaving Quebec after government closes school ]).. or children taken from parents because they are not being afforded privileges that their "worldly" peers have, etc.
We are obeying the laws of the land (so far!), and following our "religion" the best we know how, but it seems like the sentiment of this land is growing more and more like the "anti-God" sentiment of communistic Russia a few decades ago.
How far is this going to go? And my question to you is.. how far would you like to see it go? If there was a "painless" way of ensuring that my children would grow up to shun "useless and harmful" belief in God, and rather become "intelligent and progressive" atheists, would you promote this for the betterment of mankind, as you would see it?
Regarding the poll: Atheists or non-religious only vote please, since this is supposed to reflect your view.
(BTW, I can't believe this is my 2000th post!)
If there were a painless way says a lot. This would be a massive change in mankind and change of any sort, even for the better, is never painless.
I don't mind what people teach their kids about religion at home, so long as it doesn't infringe on others. I just don't want the way far out there christians (and other religious groups) to have control that isn't proportionate to their population in society. And I really don't want religion in school. as I mentioned in another thread, if you put a mormon, a catholic, lutheran, a nazerine, a 7th day adventist and presbyterian in a locked room, one would probably kill the other over their religious differences . (I don't mean literally that one would kill the other) so if christians don't have their act on the same page, over the same god, then they have no room to be using public funds to teach kiddies about jesus and his homies.
but as far as teaching kids things like love and how to be a productive citizen and just a good person in general, that's something I would want to teach my children as well, I just don't need god to do it.
I went to a public high school. In 9th grade I took a required class called Humanities. This included many social sciences and there was a unit on World Religions. We learned all about them from textbooks and teaching plans - just like any other subject. This was no encroachment on religious freedom. All of the religions classified as "major" were discussed - but never in a philosophical way like, "which of these is the Truth?" - nothing of the sort. Just facts, figures, histories, and other basics. I also was able to take a class called Cultural Anthropology in high school where religions were studied even more in-depth. These 2 classes were invaluable for me and I would like to see all children receive this type of education. Note: I was a Christian at the time, and I was not at all shocked or offended to learn what other kids believed. I already knew that the religions existed - it was nice to learn more about them in a controlled atmosphere.
I could agree with a class that would teach students the differences of religions and about religions. However, I live in a very very very very red and very very very very religious state. it's the good ol' boy system here and I promise, guarantee and would hedge a bet that that line would be crossed and nothing would be said about it.
In the US of A, we have that 1st amendment in the Bill of Rights specifying that the "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
.................
The 1st amendment is a pretty powerful protection.
Yes, on the surface it is. But it is being challenged indirectly, and that is the biggest danger. For example, you said:
Quote:
Teaching about religion is ok but indoctrination of religious tenants is not ok. (emphasis added) Parents who home-school should be vetted for competence to teach and their curriculum approved so these children actually get a real education that meets the education standards mandated by the states.
Religious indoctrination and teaching with the intent of convincing children to believe in a particular religion should be separate from their regular education and a voluntary choice of their parents. It should never be inserted into regular science, math, history, etc.
As you stated, that is where it becomes murky.. You believe that religious indoctrination is wrong, but when is attempts to stifle "religious indoctrination" going against "respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"? Also, what is "real education"? I agree that education should meet standards set by the states, so children are equipped for the real world.. but what if "anti-biblical" teaching is included with these mandated standards? What I believe as real and factual may not be what you believe as real and factual.
Quote:
Those who think they must force others to believe as they do cannot be very confident in their own beliefs.
I agree with this up to a point.. but a statement like "no forcing anyone to believe as you do" is a statement that looks good on paper but is impossible in real life. What is "forcing"? If I am forced to use curriculum teaching "real and factual" evolution to my children, and not allowed to use a "fantasy" Bible-based curriculum, who is doing the forcing?
I could agree with a class that would teach students the differences of religions and about religions. However, I live in a very very very very red and very very very very religious state. it's the good ol' boy system here and I promise, guarantee and would hedge a bet that that line would be crossed and nothing would be said about it.
I have to admit, I was pretty lucky with my public education. In my high school days, I lived in a school district that had some of the highest funding in the country at the time.
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