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Lamagra, I would have to disagree with you on your statement that bringing God into the conversation cuts off any line of logic.
It does only with some people, such as Christian fundamentalists who have a hard time conversing logically even with other Christians who might not take as literal intepretation of the Bible let alone an atheist/agnostic. Then there are people of all worldviews who are closed-minded in general.
One basic thing that is required for a discussion is that atheism, agnosticism and such are not religions in and of itself and beyond the topic of the belief in the existence of God or a similar entity, two atheists or two agnostics can otherwise have entirely different views. I've met atheists who are otherwise very politically conservative, like I've met Christians who are politically liberal even though both fly in the face of the common perception (at least in America).
Is it any more logical to think matter and energy popped into existence from nothing?
Matter and energy can't be created or destroyed, so the only way it could exist is if it always did. No beginning and no ending.
It's funny how creationists say "God is infinite", yet, when energy and matter come into the discussion, they reply with, "Well, energy and matter have to come from somewhere. Double standard, plain and simple.
I have seen debates with atheists/agnostics vs christians. Both scholars had done extremely well. In the end, no one's mind it changed. What does it prove? That there is intellectual material available for both sides on the topic. Anyone who thinks they have avowed it or disavowed it purely on intellectual reasons betrays a prejudice and a lack of understanding on the subject. There have been giants in their thinking abilities who have been atheists. There have been giants who have been committed believers. Some of the comments you make, although poignant, are cheapened by the gross and haughty generalizations.
"I have faith there's no God."
I'd like to see a Religionist find a way out of that one.
Matter and energy can't be created or destroyed, so the only way it could exist is if it always did. No beginning and no ending.
It's funny how creationists say "God is infinite", yet, when energy and matter come into the discussion, they reply with, "Well, energy and matter have to come from somewhere. Double standard, plain and simple.
I can see why you think that is a double standard. The reason I believe it is not is it isn't logical to think that matter and energy existed forever. It contradicts the first two laws of thermodynamics. I can see how it is reasonable that God exists when taking everyting into account. the universe appears to be finite, everything physical is precipitated by materials and factors bringing about it's existence, nothing physical finds its reason to existing in itself. IF, there is a god, I could see how it would be reasonable (I realize I'm going to be tarred and feathered for this one), looking at the design of cosmological constants, design of nature, complexities of information, to think he has existence in himself, is uncaused, and has a design amd purpose.
Difficult discussion. It is the discussion, isn't it? Where we all came from, our origins. One thing I'll say is that I appreciate people like yourself who think deeply about these things. Everyone on this forum, for the most part, doesn't ignore these big questions, and that is at least one thing we have in common. So thanks for dialoging with me.
We all have multiple reasons for believeing what we do or don't. No one avows or disavows a worldview simply on intellect; there are always other factors that go into it: intellectual, empirical, exsistential, moral, experiential, etc. There are multiple reason why you disapprove of christianity, and multiple reasons why I can't espouse the atheistic worldview.
Last edited by tic_constant; 10-15-2008 at 04:08 AM..
Reason: submitted before I was done writing
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