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The key point is that people who think freely should be able to free themselves of any particular line of thinking... and through the use of structured logic, and rationality of available evidence, they'll be able to derive the same answers as others that use the same method.
People that rely on authority, tradition, dogma however will NOT be able to derive the same dictates without attachment to those things however. Just think of how different cultures have developed different belief systems; because they were developed independently, you don't see a lot of the dogma/tradition related facets repeat (the different gods that have been developed completely independently of others; greco-roman gods, versus chinese gods, versus mayan gods, etc)... on the other hand, things that emerged logically and rationally out of necessity tend to be duplicated; such as systems of government, methods of payment, agriculture, the wheel, etc.
If 'free thinkers' think alike, it's because correct answers are convergent. As we begin to understand more and more of the factors, the number of possible answers begin to narrow down, until we reach our goal of a 'correct answer'.
And the majority of the well informed free thinking atheists are actually weak atheists/strong agnostics, as that's really the only reasonable conclusion we can arrive at given our current understanding of things.
That is to say, from the reasoning of the available evidence and logic, we can determine that the common conception of 'god' is extremely improbable to impossible (impossible if paradoxical, through self contradiction, or impossible given the natural evidence that we have available), but we cannot be certain of the cause of creation of existence at this point in time, and can't rule out improbable 'gods'.
But Atheists DO have a particular line of thinking. I have met a lot of them, and they all seem to think so much alike! Then they go on about how they are "free thinkers". But how can they be? Its almost as if they are delusional. Then they go and call Christians delusional.
But Im just saying- you cant be a free thinker and close the door on God. A free thinker must be open to all possibilities.
As I indicated, most who post here from the theist point of view (specifically christian) hold that the answers to everything are to be found in the bible. That may be free will to believe it, but it is not free thought. It is accepting what someone else has said is true as the truth. Not the same as free thinking at all.
But Atheists accept "free thought" from other Atheists. The Atheists didnt think of it themselves, they just go along with the other Atheists "free thought".
Before you carry on with this nonsense that you desperately seem to want to believe, how about answering my questions....
Once again...So then am I to assume that you do not believe the bible is a book of truth since you say you don't take it at face value. Have you questioned the existence of God? How about all the impossibilities regarding creation, and other stories in that book? If you have then how do you come to the conclusion that anything supernatural exists?
Do you follow the ten commandments, or other scripture? How do you feel about homosexuality, sex outside of marriage, and other things considered sins by most Christians....Are your opinions on these things actually yours or are they imposed by your religion?
As you said a free thinker must entertain all possibilities including the possibility that god may not exist and is merely a construct of mankind. Personally I cannot believe things that do not make sense, and there is much about god stories that do not, if you really think about it.
But Atheists accept "free thought" from other Atheists. The Atheists didnt think of it themselves, they just go along with the other Atheists "free thought".
This is only your assumption and it is blatantly false.
But Atheists DO have a particular line of thinking. I have met a lot of them, and they all seem to think so much alike! Then they go on about how they are "free thinkers". But how can they be? Its almost as if they are delusional. Then they go and call Christians delusional.
But Im just saying- you cant be a free thinker and close the door on God. A free thinker must be open to all possibilities.
I have questioned my faith many times.
I was an Atheist before I knew what it was called. I went to church (still do on occasion) and put myself out there. Nothing touched me, nothing changed my life, nothing called me. I grew up in fairly conservative areas and it simply didn't touch me at all. I started going to buddhist worship groups, pagan worship groups, met with some Jains and traveling worshippers of all types. I found it all fascinating, but nothing that I would devote my life too.
Every Atheist I've ever met has had VASTLY different beliefs, some believe in Buddhism, some follow the Vedas, some use stories from the bible to live their life and some don't believe in any of it. Just like there are different sects of Christianity (over 80,000, I believe) there are different types of Atheists.
You've questioned your faith and have been drawn back to it. Many questioned their faith and found it to be incorrect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richmonder27
But Atheists accept "free thought" from other Atheists. The Atheists didnt think of it themselves, they just go along with the other Atheists "free thought".
I didn't know any 'out of the closet' Atheists until I was in my late teens/early 20s. I learned much of what I know of the world from people of every persuasion, including the religious and non-religious. Me and my Atheist friends get in philosophical arguments ALL THE TIME. We rarely agree on anything, actually, except the disbelief in dieties. That's the only thing Atheists have in common.
But Atheists DO have a particular line of thinking. I have met a lot of them, and they all seem to think so much alike! Then they go on about how they are "free thinkers". But how can they be? Its almost as if they are delusional. Then they go and call Christians delusional.
But Im just saying- you cant be a free thinker and close the door on God. A free thinker must be open to all possibilities.
I have questioned my faith many times.
Yet again, They will think alike when it comes to god because that's what they have in common. They simply agree on one thing as individuals. As I think it has been illustrated before, just because millions of peoplel like bacon doesn't mean that they all think in lockstep, they all just happen to agree that bacon is good.
These people have considered the possibility of god, and they don't think there is much to it. Another illustration would be to say that the moon really isn't made of cheese. It doesn't mean that you aren't a free thinker if you don't think the moon is made of cheese. It doesn't mean you aren't a free thinker, if you don't think that a prius is a fast car. Would a free thinker be someone who drinks gasoline? Would a free thinker be someone sticks their hand on a hot stove? Just because an Atheist closes the door on a few asinine possibilities does not negate them being a free thinker.
But Atheists DO have a particular line of thinking. I have met a lot of them, and they all seem to think so much alike! Then they go on about how they are "free thinkers". But how can they be? Its almost as if they are delusional. Then they go and call Christians delusional.
But Im just saying- you cant be a free thinker and close the door on God. A free thinker must be open to all possibilities.
I have questioned my faith many times.
I think there is clearly a difference between slamming the door shut on something and being open to some sort of evidence but not convinced of what the vast majority of religious people are trying to peddle.
Despite your attempt at trying to play a semantics game with the description of "Free Thinker," I think I can speak for most people on this board in saying that we would mostly consider ourselves "Free" from reality-denial doctrine and forced recitation of excuses provided to foster belief in a supernatural entity.
The description of "Free Thinker," in so much as how I view it, has less to do with examining the possibility of the existence of whether or not God exists but not falling mentally ill to the vague assumptions and dictates of religion. A vast majority of the world will make very important life decisions for themselves based on what the Church, Synagogue, Mosque, etc... tells them to do based on faith. In fact, organizations like the Catholic Church change their doctrines on a whim so as to better support the changing opinions of society as it sees necessary. One minute, the Church might say the Earth is flat and the next minute they'll tell the worshipers and parishioners the Earth is indeed round and it's ok to believe that. The mere thought that an organization can so easily depict for me what I will believe or entrust to be true is not indicative of "Free Thought" at all.
"Free Thought" seems to imply to me that I am capable of reading works of literature, philosophy, scientific material and even various religious texts and being able to draw a distinction for what I feel is a valid way of living my life. Religion typically offers one book with multiple interpretations backed by an un-falsifiable interpretation and then seeks to order the followers of such to recognize that as "The Truth."
Other insights and interpretations of literature, philosophy and scientific material are only emulated to a satisfactory degree through the religious organization if it fits in with the pre-conceived dictates of what it feels is non-threatening and non-challenging to the belief system. That does not denote "Free Thought."
On my bookshelf I have many works of literature, science, and philosophy. I have historical works and many novels. Some of them deal with the multitudes of thought presented by individual branches of religion, some of them deal with the antithesis of religion and some of them are in the vast cavern in-between. I have utilized and continued to utilize every conceivable avenue to learn as much about varying thought systems and beliefs as I can. Having used those tools, I have come to personal conclusions of what I feel is right and wrong, what I feel lines up with my own psychological needs, and how I cope and understand the world. I am allowed to do that on my own accord because I am not held by the confines and boundaries of religion. That, in itself, seems to me to be based more on the ability to have "Free Thought" than anything else.
Richmonder27: Science knows it isn't infallible. It is self-correcting by definition. Any scientific stand is open to review by other scientists, and if it is found to be incorrect, it is modified.
That is the difference between science and religion. The same old mythology believed by primitive people who had no knowledge of how thing really work amd relied on magic is expected to be believed in the modern world. It is NOT self-correcting, but continues in its old ignorant ways. Thus we have debates netween creationists and scientists which should be over instantly in favor of science, but since religion is given respect that it does not deserve, it drags on.
But Atheists accept "free thought" from other Atheists. The Atheists didnt think of it themselves, they just go along with the other Atheists "free thought".
Atheists accept a lot from many places. Many Atheists will admit that books like the bible have some very worthwhile bits wisdom in them.
And as far as what Atheists do and do not think of: How many ideals floating around in the world today are actually new and fresh? From metaphysics, to economics and everhwhere in between, chances are that the idea has been thought of before. This especially goes with monotheism - which ripped most of their ideas off from other previous societies. Do you honestly think that the monotheist religions of today were the first to think of an afterlife and a Jesus like character?
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