The Fool hath said in his heart 'there is no god.' (salvation, minority)

[DaniMae1]

Hey I deconverted also! I was in the United Pentecostal Church for 14 years. Probably the worst of the worst as far as churches go! I could no longer take all of the bible contradictions and bull sh*t anymore. Unanswered prayers, giving the thieves too much money....

[Rejoicer]

Originally Posted by justme58

No dummy, I did it all by the book, my experiences paralleled everyone else, I even had a tearful BA experience

That all sounds like theatrics to me. All emotion and no real belief.

You have been coerced, it is called indoctrination, few realize they are being indoctrinated.

You are trying to equate it with the indoctrination that Satan does on people, and they don't realize it? I was not coerced, I ought to know whether or not I was coerced - maybe you were and now you believe everyone one else is also.

Well that means your buybull is not inerrant, and no, there is hope for post koolaide drinkers.

You call that hope - becoming worm food, fertilizer, to use your own words?
I don't consider that hope - you need to look up "hope" in the dictionary.

Satan is a mythical creation of the xian church, IOW another fantasy figure - actually I belong to no one other than my family.

One day you will find out the truth. Right now you are being deluded.

Throwing verses out at us does not work, remember we are blind and dumb so we cannot comprehend your babble.

That is true, Jesus did tell us not to cast our pearls upon swine.

Satan was invented by the church, he is not real, neither is your gawd

.

He is too real, he controls you and you don't even realize it.

Don't want abuse? Don't postulate here - read the rules.

I'm not bothered by your or other's insults. I was just expressing my opinion, you are the one that got all upset over it.

My friends here tend to see stuff the way I do, maybe they are just a bit more polite

Yes, I think they are.

Yoiu missed that part where I said I attended multiple churches. Perhaps you can enlighten us and tell us which is the correct demonination (spelled wrong on purpose)

Well, one where people faint and all babble at the same time thinking they are speaking in tongues, is not one of them. You don't see that demonstrated by Jesus when we walked the earth, so why would it be the way to do it now.

Want to take bets? You xians are all gullible. All I need to do is get with the flow, pretend to be like you folk and one service stand up and say some s#!t and end off with "thus sayeth the lawd" and you sheeple will all say (R)amen

Like I told you before, we can't see your heart. Christians are doing as we were told, extending love to everyone. Yes, you would probably fool many, but some of us can pinpoint a phony.

No projection is exclusively the domain of the religious wingnuts.You obviously have not been to many xian forums.

I have, but I see that you are trying to project what you believe to be true, same thing, different objective.

You are accusing me of being a bigot, the farthest from the truth, so what else could it be, certainly not un-twisted.

Aah I thought so, we probably need some ale from the holy spook to understand your babble?

Well, it is true, that the blind cannot see.

Nope, that is nothing to do with free will

So, you are saying that "not believing in God" was not your idea, it was forced upon you? You were forced to be atheist?

Any time you are up to it, just say, you have already failed in your 1st attempt.

I believe I have already demonstrated that you are the one that is wrong - you haven't proven anything.

You want to question our worldview and you get a free pass, yup fundie logic at its finest.
Backpeddaling? I am sure others will see you for what you are. A pious, self aggrandized bigot.

Actually, I was being nice, but someone with you attitude would not comprehend. You are the one that has denigrated your own father. If he was a believer and died believing - you think him a fool?

Phail, he was talking to the religious of the day not non religious. See you cannot even decipher your own buybull?

You are the one that can't decipher the Bible. The religious of that day were the same as non religious, because they had it all wrong. They didn't believe that Jesus was the Son of God - so they were in the same boat as you.

Nope, that is what you xians do, make s#!T up as you go along.
Prove it.

I could say the same thing to you. Prove that He's not.

Yes I am free to judge, I do not follow your babble.No, the con IS the church and its principle of tithes, I thought I gave to gawd but in reality, he does not exist hence the phailure of a ROI. I mean Malachi is nothing but a promise for a ROI, you know, opening the floodgates of heaven, here let me quote it for you.

For someone who has just told me they don't understand the "babble", you do a good job of bringing it up. The tithe, FYI, is not something the church made up. Go back and read the old testament, it was done as far back as Abel. That it didn't work for you is probably your own doing.

[/indent]Unless you deny this verse is used as a pre-collection text?
Of course not, but you are merely deflecting now, you said I could fool all of the congregation except your gawd hence using your logic, then being all filled with the holy spook, sure did not help much if I was able to fool them for so long?

We are not the ones that are going to reject you in heaven. God is. So whether we believe that others are sincere or not does not matter. I don't believe you know as much as you give yourself credit for knowing. In 8 years you were not able to learn that?

Sorry bud, you live in la la land, I am a true deconvert as are many others here in the A&A forum.
Satan is only real to yuo and your ilk.We do not like you trolls - get a hint and shove you religion up your own A**Thank you, I am not an xian. You folk seem to like telling people that, do you get a woody when you do that?
You theists are 99% in your face, you just are too doff to realize it

I believe I have heard enough from you to make the assumption that you are not a Christian. What I have also deducted is that you never were, even if you really think you were. I believe that you think that saying you de-converted somehow gives you brownie points among your peers and you can probably fool them, but not everyone is that gullible.

[agnostic soldier]

Rejoicer, you seem very firm in your religious convictions, but can you empirically verify that your beliefs are true? Why do you adhere to Christianity but not to Wicca or Hinduism? What makes you so sure that Jesus is god, but Allah is not? While you may not be a fool, you will only convince atheists that you are if you are unable to empirically substantiate your beliefs. So far you have not given any empirical evidence that proves you're right. Also, I'll add that it isn't hopeless if someone doesn't believe in the afterlife. Hope comes from envisioning a better world than you currently live in. This doesn't mean the 'hope' for an ethereal world. You can work to make this world the world you hoped for, although you can't work for an undetectable afterlife.

[Rejoicer]

Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend

And all you have to go on is that the bible says it is true. That's what I'm saying.

You seem to have a mental block about what I say or don't say. I said, that after I read it and studied it, I decided it was true. Isn't that what everyone does? You read it and you decided it wasn't true - that was your choice.

Well I used to be, but it is interesting that you can only verbalize that you believe because it says it is true. Do you understand the other reasons?

Again, you are putting words in my mouth. I said after I studied it. When you study the Old Testament and discover how many of the prophesies have come to pass, that is different than just believing it because it says it is true. Here is a link of the many political events that were prophesied in the Bible that have actually occurred. Are you saying that these were all coincidence?

Bible prophecies have correctly predicted events in secular history.

Some god, and I thought he wanted unbelievers to "see the light". Or is God not really "the god of this age"? Does that mean he's not God anymore?

He does, but since God knows everything, He knows whether or not a person will ever accept Him or reject Him.

Yes, that only people have told you about your god. God did not tell you himself, and a tingle when you think about Jesus is something that could happen to anyone for any thought, true or not.

Well, actually, God did tell me himself through the Bible. The Bible is God's word to us. The other people are just other sources that God uses. I don't know about a tingle - I don't think that is what I have experienced with Jesus, so I don't know what you are getting at.

No that's not why I don't believe them. But apparently it is why you do believe the bible, and I was just wondering why that same rule doesn't apply to the quran or any other book. Special pleading.

I have never read the Quran. But I do know that their leader is Muhammed, a human being who never went to heaven, so why would I take his teaching over Jesus' when Jesus knows all about heaven because He has been there.

The original conversation:
LIYF: Well, I read the bible, and much of it is nonsense that could not have come about by a "pure-love" being. That is unless love means condoning and sometimes commanding murder, rape, polygamy, incest, slavery, womanizing, anti-freedom of religion, cruel and unusual punishments like stoning for picking up sticks on the sabbath, etc.

R: Where did God command any of those things. Apparently you haven't read the Bible. People did those things, just like they do today. They are not commanded by God to do so, so your statement is bogus.

LIYF: So you don't believe Moses did everything in accordance with what God commanded?

MOSES did many of these things. Moses was a murderer, and commanded his people to murder. Just read what happens after he gets the 10 commandments and sees the golden calf, where he tells all the people, who were merely practicing freedom of religion, to kill each other (despite the commandment he held in his hand, thou shalt not kill). Or, numbers 31 where Moses commands the warriors to go back, kill all the young boys, and take all the virgins for themselves (slavery, rape, and maybe even pedophilia). Or read all the absurd rules in leviticus where people are stoned to death for menial and arbitrary "crimes".

There isn't enough room for me to explain it here, but I will give you a link for you to look it up, in case you are sincerely interested in knowing the truth. The problem with many un-believers is that they take some scripture and form an opinion without knowing the character of God. God is the God of love, but He is a Just God also, and all that do not obey Him will find out how far the wrath of God can reach.

Numbers 31 - Vengeance on Midian

These are just a few examples of those horrible things that the bible says Moses commanded of his people. So I ask again, do you believe Moses did everything in accordance with what God commanded?

Moses was obedient and did what God commanded. But you have to understand what the reason for God commanding such things. You can't do that by just reading parts of the Bible.

Sure.. that happens every time for the believers... a slave becomes a Christian and suddenly his master is nice.. right...

That is not what I said. I said Jesus can change the situation. If you haven't tried it, don't knock it, because it has worked for me.

An excellent passage to use to get people to obey, say a Roman emperor and his newly converted government?

I'm not sure I understand your statement.

1 cor 14:34-35 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Again, you have to study if you want to understand. Keep in mind that they had different rules in that period of time - and women were treated differently than they are treated in the western world. Here is a reasonable explanation.

Christopher Forbes has argued that the key to this problem is the word aischron in v. 35, translated "improper" in the NASB. When Paul tells women to "keep silent" he is not prohibiting their making a verbal contribution to the meeting, whether in the form of praying or prophesying or the like. Rather, he is saying that if they "desire to learn anything" they should "ask their own husbands at home" (v. 35). To do otherwise is "improper" or "shameful". According to Forbes, "the problem was that they were asking other peoples' husbands (or other people) on the spot" (274). What Paul prohibits women from doing in the public assembly is asking questions of someone other than their husbands.

But why would this be regarded as "improper" or "shameful"? Forbes says that "there existed in the Graeco-Roman world in [the first century] . . . a strong prejudice against women speaking in public, and especially against their speaking to other women's husbands. In a society with strictly defined gender and social roles, and a strong view of the rights of the man over his wife, such behaviour was treated as totally inappropriate" (274-75). Therefore, women are free to pray and prophesy within the assembly. But when issues arise that they don't understand, they must refrain from making probing inquiry. Why? For one thing, there is a limited time in any one meeting and Paul does not want any one or any group to dominate the gathering (which seems to be at least part of the reason for his instruction in vv. 27-31 where he puts limits on how many can speak in tongues and prophesy). But more important, "to ask questions of the husbands of other women (especially as this might lead to extended discussions) would be grossly improper, and as such is not to be permitted" (276). One could reasonably argue that, if this view is correct, Paul's prohibition in v. 34 on women speaking is no longer applicable. For all will acknowledge, at least in western society, that today there is no shame or impropriety in a woman asking a question in public of another woman's husband.


This view also explains Paul's appeal to "the Law" (i.e., the OT) in v. 34. The OT does not teach that women are to remain silent at all times in worship (cf. Ex. 15:20-21; 2 Sam. 6:15,19; Ps. 148:12). But it does endorse male headship in the home and in worship, consistent with Paul's teaching here and elsewhere.

[Rafius]

Originally Posted by Rejoicer

Here is a link of the many political events that were prophesied in the Bible that have actually occurred. Are you saying that these were all coincidence?

Lets have a look at just one of these as I can't be bothered to spend time on such nonsense as Bible prophecy. We can see how this apologist site twists what the words do say to what it wants them to say.

"Sacking of Jerusalem by the Romans. Matt 24
Fulfilled - 70CE.

"Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2"Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."

Can anyone show me where in that verse it even mentions "the Romans"

Now if it had said......

In 70 CE, the Roman army, commanded byTitus, with Tiberius Julius Alexander as his second-in-command, will besiege and conquer the city of Jerusalem and destroy the temple

......they might have a point but in effect. All this 'prophecy' is saying is that
some time in the future, this building will be destroyed.

Not much of a 'prophecy' when you consider that it was a time when the main modus operandi of countries was to invade another.

We also know that Jesus was wrong when he said that not one stone will be left on another as the wall now known as the 'wailing wall' stands today as it stood before the destruction. It's amazing how, since Matthew was written after 70CE the author still managed to get this prophecy wrong.

[TRANSPONDER]

Well, I have to say that the 'destruction' prophecy is one of the better ones. It does suggest to me that it is either a remarkably good guess or it post - dates the Jewish war. In fact is was not even expected that the Temple would be destroyed even if the Romans won.

Of course, The believers will say that one good prophecy proves everything whereas one good refutation proves nothing.

I read a book by Carsten Theide on this postage -sized fragment of Dead Sea scroll which he insists is a bit of Mark. In order to make it fit he has to argue that it doesn't...I am having to rely on memory here...it doesn't refer to the 'land' of Genessaret

"Mark 6.53. And when they had passed over, they came into the land of Gennesaret, and drew to the shore."

Theide's argument was that this was an early version of Mark which referred to Genessaret as a town but, after the Jewish war, it was destroyed and just 'land'. So the later version of Mark which we have was amended to 'land of Genessaret' to reflect the results of the Jewish war.

If that's right, surely something as traumatic as the destruction of the Temple could and should be added into a later version of the gospels, and it would surely have to be put in there in the form of a prophecy.

But even if Carsten Theide is indulging in a bit of wishful thinking and this tiny fragment isn't an early version of Mark (if it is, so what, Paul was spreading his own Gentile take on Jesus before the Jewish war anyway), is there any indication that this prophecy was added later? After all, it is found in Mark, Matthew and Luke. Must be true, mustn't it?

There's the clue. It isn't in John at all, so far as I can find, either in the entry to the Temple (John 12) or the Temple cleansing which belongs there but was shifted to John 2 13-on.

If he doesn't mention it, can it really be a prophecy of Jesus? I don't see how John could have missed it if it was. That alone tends to put it as a post -Jewish war amendment to a text that the synoptics had to have used. That argues for Matthew and Mark (as they now stand) and Luke as post 73 A.D.

Still early enough for most believers, but late enough for it not to be a prophecy.

[Rejoicer]

Originally Posted by agnostic soldier

Rejoicer, you seem very firm in your religious convictions, but can you empirically verify that your beliefs are true? Why do you adhere to Christianity but not to Wicca or Hinduism?

As you stated, I am firm in my religious convictions. When you have found the truth, there is no reason to search any further.

What makes you so sure that Jesus is god, but Allah is not?

The Bible is basically a reliable and trustworthy document of History.
On the basis of this, we have sufficient evidence to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Jesus did many miracles in the presence of His disciples. His disciples died martyr's deaths proclaiming that Jesus was the Son of God. People do not give their life over a lie. Jesus proclaimed God as His father, not Allah. I believe Jesus.

While you may not be a fool, you will only convince atheists that you are if you are unable to empirically substantiate your beliefs. So far you have not given any empirical evidence that proves you're right.

I will probably never be able to provide enough empirical evidence to prove that I am right. I accept that. But, atheists have also not given me any empirical evidence that God doesn't exist other than they don't believe He does.

Also, I'll add that it isn't hopeless if someone doesn't believe in the afterlife. Hope comes from envisioning a better world than you currently live in.

I disagree with you. This life is extremely short for those of us who live a full life, even shorter for many others. Putting our hope in this world, only for everything to end when we die, is no hope at all. The hope is in knowing that we will live forever in a place where there will be no evil, no pain and no death. And knowing Jesus provides that hope.

This doesn't mean the 'hope' for an ethereal world. You can work to make this world the world you hoped for, although you can't work for an undetectable afterlife.

Our goal as Christians is to do both. We work to make this world better through the loving example of Jesus, and at the same time, we reserve a place for ourselves in heaven.

[Rejoicer]

Originally Posted by Rafius

Lets have a look at just one of these as I can't be bothered to spend time on such nonsense as Bible prophecy. We can see how this apologist site twists what the words do say to what it wants them to say.

"Sacking of Jerusalem by the Romans. Matt 24
Fulfilled - 70CE.

"Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2"Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."

Can anyone show me where in that verse it even mentions "the Romans"

That Jerusalem was destroyed like within 40 years after Jesus said it would, is what is important here, that it happened to be the Romans is historically correct, so why would it be necessary for Jesus to have said "the Romans" will destroy Jerusalem. Those that do not want to believe, won't believe even if Jesus had given the names of the Generals.


(MATT. 24:4-14; MARK 13:5-13; LUKE 21:8-19)
In answer to the three questions submitted to him by the four Apostles, the Lord delivered to them what is known as the Olivet Prophecy. This can be divided into three sections, providing answers to the three questions.

The first sections deals with the question relating to the sign of the end of the Age. The Age, in question, was the Mosaic Age, which came to an end in A.D. 70 with the final destruction of the Temple. It will be seen that all of the Olivet Prophecy in this section was fulfilled in the age of the Apostles to A.D.70. It is important to notice this, for so often these words are applied to contemporary events. They can only do so typically, for the literal fulfillment of these words took place prior to the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in A.D.70.


In the year 66 AD the Jews of Judea rebelled against their Roman masters. In response, the Emperor Nero dispatched an army under the generalship of Vespasian to restore order. By the year 68, resistance in the northern part of the province had been eradicated and the Romans turned their full attention to the subjugation of Jerusalem. That same year, the Emperor Nero died by his own hand, creating a power vacuum in Rome. In the resultant chaos, Vespasian was declared Emperor and returned to the Imperial City. It fell to his son, Titus, to lead the remaining army in the assault on Jerusalem.


Roman CenturianThe Roman legions surrounded the city and began to slowly squeeze the life out of the Jewish stronghold. By the year 70, the attackers had breached Jerusalem's outer walls and began a systematic ransacking of the city. The assault culminated in the burning and destruction of the Temple that served as the center of Judaism.

In victory, the Romans slaughtered thousands. Of those sparred from death: thousands more were enslaved and sent to toil in the mines of Egypt, others were dispersed to arenas throughout the Empire to be butchered for the amusement of the public. The Temple's sacred relics were taken to Rome where they were displayed in celebration of the victory.

The rebellion sputtered on for another three years and was finally extinguished in 73 AD with the fall of the various pockets of resistance including the stronghold at Masada.

Now if it had said......

In 70 CE, the Roman army, commanded byTitus, with Tiberius Julius Alexander as his second-in-command, will besiege and conquer the city of Jerusalem and destroy the temple

Then faith wouldn't be necessary. But, during the time of Jesus, many saw his miracles and did not believe, so don't kid yourself that if He had given you all the information you request you would believe. Chances are you would still ask for more proof.

......they might have a point but in effect. All this 'prophecy' is saying is that
some time in the future, this building will be destroyed.

Not much of a 'prophecy' when you consider that it was a time when the main modus operandi of countries was to invade another.

Explain then, how this prophesy happened when it was prophesied it would.

How the exact day and year that Israel
became a nation was prophesied in the Bible!



Mathematical Bible Prophecy

We also know that Jesus was wrong when he said that not one stone will be left on another as the wall now known as the 'wailing wall' stands today as it stood before the destruction. It's amazing how, since Matthew was written after 70CE the author still managed to get this prophecy wrong.

You are straining at a gnat. The temple was destroyed. The fact that this one wall remains for the Jews to cry on is just another prophesy come true.

2) Eternal Symbol

The Sages prophesied that even after the Temple's destruction, the Divine Presence would never leave the Western Wall, and that the Wall will never be destroyed. The Wall is endowed with everlasting sanctity, as the Talmud says: "And I will make your sanctuaries desolate" (Leviticus 26:31) -- this means that the sanctuaries retain their sanctity even when they are desolate.

Jerusalem was destroyed and rebuilt nine times. And through it all, one symbol remained intact: the Western Wall.

In establishing the eternal covenant with Abraham, God promised that the Jewish people will never be destroyed (Genesis 17:7). In this way, the Wall is a symbol of the Jewish people: Just as there have been many efforts to destroy the Wall and yet it remains eternal, so too the Jewish people have outlived its enemies and remain eternal. The Wall thus became the symbol of both devastation and of hope.


Now, maybe you should answer one of my questions. If you don't believe in God, how do you believe we came to be?

[justme58]

Originally Posted by Rejoicer

That all sounds like theatrics to me. All emotion and no real belief.

Aah we are getting somewhere now. You your belief revolves around theatrics, all those tearful testimonies of folk when they get a chance to share what the lawd did for them in the past week. In a way you are right, I drank the koolaide and believed in the myths and traditions of men. Maybe if you read Matt 23 with an open mind (if that is possible) you may get an inkling of what I really think of xianity

You are trying to equate it with the indoctrination that Satan does on people, and they don't realize it?

Time and again I have asked, how can your sawtan have any influence on me, he is made up by the same goatherders that wrote your babble.

I was not coerced, I ought to know whether or not I was coerced - maybe you were and now you believe everyone one else is also.

So if you grew up in Iran you would still be an xian then? Highly unlikely. You are the one going with the flow, I am the one "kicking at the goads" so to speak

You call that hope - becoming worm food, fertilizer, to use your own words?
I don't consider that hope - you need to look up "hope" in the dictionary.

I hope for nothing after death, if I make the magic threescore and ten, that will be ample for me. Like many other A/A's here, I have made peace with my mortality

One day you will find out the truth. Right now you are being deluded.

No, one day you will. I have already come to the conclusion your gawd and babble are in the same category as Alice in Wonderland - fantasy.

That is true, Jesus did tell us not to cast our pearls upon swine.

Problem is, I know your songsheet so well so it is hard to argue with a deconvert like me.

He is too real, he controls you and you don't even realize it.

Well if you say so it must be true then,? How can an adversary , of which at this point only seems to be you, have any influence over me? In all my time as an xian (30 years) I never met satan nor did I ever see any demons, Oh the cast out spirits of poverty, spirits of lust, and spirits of all the alleged demons in the churches , the folk fell to the floor and yup, as you said earlier, theatrics, that is all it was.

I'm not bothered by your or other's insults. I was just expressing my opinion, you are the one that got all upset over it.

What upsets us, is that you folk always come out with the no true Scotsman fallacy to try and deal with us "heathen". All your apologetics are the same old, same old we have all heard before. You think that most of us did not have some "crisis of faith" before we deconverted? Most of us looked in DETAL in the bible for answers and that is where we came to the conclusion is is all hogwash. (there's a pig for you)

Well, one where people faint and all babble at the same time thinking they are speaking in tongues, is not one of them. You don't see that demonstrated by Jesus when we walked the earth, so why would it be the way to do it now.

Well which demonination is the correct one, maybe I missed sampling that koolaide flavour.

I have been in the reformed churches, numerous pentecostals and charismatic aka evangelical churches and they all sing off similar songsheets.

Like I told you before, we can't see your heart. Christians are doing as we were told, extending love to everyone. Yes, you would probably fool many, but some of us can pinpoint a phony.

I doubt it. It is the gullible that are still attendees at the myriad of xian churches and NOT atheists.

I have, but I see that you are trying to project what you believe to be true, same thing, different objective.

What objective? Of course I can compare my experience to other A/A's, you folk do it in the xian forums, what makes you think we are different in that respect?

If I have an objective, I encourage theists to really study and dig in to church history, do some textual criticism and see if they come away with the same conclusions many of us came away with. Problem is that 99% of xians knowledge of the bible , reprinted will make a book up the thickness of a spiderman comic (if they are lucky)

You are accusing me of being a bigot, the farthest from the truth, so what else could it be, certainly not un-twisted.

I stay with the accusation.

Well, it is true, that the blind cannot see.

Ironic hey? Well why then if your babble aka owners manual aka basic instructions before leaving earth et al is so ciphered? You would think your omni-gawd would have no problem making is clear for all to see if it is after all his holy writ? See this apolegetic is so lame that we laugh and scoff in your face as who must then interpret the babble for us? Another man? The holy spook? Concerning the latter, like I have stated here or elsewhere, the hs is the only consistent incompetent part of the whole xian faith hence the over 30k demoninations all claiming to be "led" by this entity. Were there any truth in your assertion of a gwad, there would be only one denomination and they wopuld all be the same in theology, doctrine etc. Not even the RCC internationally are in agreement on all things.

So, you are saying that "not believing in God" was not your idea, it was forced upon you? You were forced to be atheist?

Of course not. I think I have explained ad nausium how it went down. No one coerced me to become atheist, but xians sure coerced me to drink their koolaide

I believe I have already demonstrated that you are the one that is wrong - you haven't proven anything.

In your deluded mind maybe.

Actually, I was being nice, but someone with you attitude would not comprehend. You are the one that has denigrated your own father. If he was a believer and died believing - you think him a fool?

No just a wasted life seeing how it all ended for him after 60 years faithful service to your lawd and gawd.

You are the one that can't decipher the Bible. The religious of that day were the same as non religious, because they had it all wrong. They didn't believe that Jesus was the Son of God - so they were in the same boat as you.

Wrong! The religious although had screwed up the whole populace etc. were not the same as the so called non religious. Apart from the gentiles, the rest were all part of the religious system, the gentiles having their own pagan beliefs which were later integrated into your current xianity

I could say the same thing to you. Prove that He's not.

Fortunately the onus rests with the claimant not the denier.

For someone who has just told me they don't understand the "babble", you do a good job of bringing it up.

I never said I did not understand it, that is your assertion.

The tithe, FYI, is not something the church made up. Go back and read the old testament, it was done as far back as Abel. That it didn't work for you is probably your own doing.

I know where tithes originated. But sadly this was after the fact. All churches work on tithes and offerings and all of them use the same scrips to con the folk out of their hard earned money. Leaving a collection bowl at the entrance w/o talking about it to coerce the people into giving yields less money that with all the hype and guilt trips of robbing gawd. I should know, I was on the financial committee.

We are not the ones that are going to reject you in heaven. God is. So whether we believe that others are sincere or not does not matter. I don't believe you know as much as you give yourself credit for knowing. In 8 years you were not able to learn that?

8 years was as P&W leader, not my entire time in delusion which was over 30 years. I probably know a lot more than you and that is blatantly obvious to many of us here.

I believe I have heard enough from you to make the assumption that you are not a Christian.

Thank you. You folk love telling other that don't you

What I have also deducted is that you never were, even if you really think you were.

Still the no true Scotsman fallacy? Really dude, that s#!t does not fly with us here.

I believe that you think that saying you de-converted somehow gives you brownie points among your peers and you can probably fool them, but not everyone is that gullible.

My peers? Other A/A's like me? Oh stick around, please do, when the other chime in you will come to realize that the majority posting here are ex-xians

Here is a link for you, go and read some testimonies on the forums

ExChristianDotNet - encouraging ex-Christians (de-converting or former Christians)

If you dare, some of what is shared may just burst your theistic bubble you live in.

[agnostic soldier]

Rejoicer, you're arguments seem to be based on personal opinions rather than facts and reason.

believe those who seek the truth; be weary of those who find it.

the bible isn't a credible source. It is an argument from authority and no contemporary independent sources confirm its truth. Also, excluding the bible(since it's not evidence)what evidence do you have that jesus did all those things?
People do give their lives over to a lie. A nonreligious example of this is people to dedicate their time and energy to beliefs in alien abduction/space craft. Analogously, you give your life over to jesus, yet you cannot empirically prove that he exists.
Assuming there is a god, how do you know that allah is not god? You're assuming that what jesus/the bible said is infallible. This is not true though.

the burden of proof is on the one claiming that x is true. If the one claiming that x is true can't empirically justify their claim then it is logical to accept that claim is true. An example of this is psychics. Many people believe that this phenomena is true, yet they can't prove it is, which is why most people consider the belief to be nonsense. Similarly, the theist is the one positing that a god exists. They can't empirically prove that their claim is true though, so it follows that one should adopt a position of disbelief.

This reminds of neitzche's quote,' the christian resolution that the world is bad and ugly makes the world bad and ugly.' you're assuming that the world is a place of evil and misery and there's nothing we can do to stop it. This is not true though. You can put your hope in making this world better for those in the future. An example of this would be the city of bellingham. The city has as many homeless people as tacoma, although bellingham is half the size of tacoma. Someone can place their hope in solving this problem. They can also make this hope become a reality by working to solve the problem, by working with/starting organizations to work to solve it. It is unimportant that your conciousness will cease to exist at death because you can make it better for those who come after you.


Our goal as christians is to do both. We work to make this world better through the loving example of jesus, and at the same time, we reserve a place for ourselves in heaven.