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Problem is, atheists don't want to think logically on this. Try it, it's not hard.
If you've got 2 choices:
1. God exists and created it.
2. Everything just happened.
If we know that #2 is impossible. #1 has to be the answer until a better answer can be found. Instead you want to pull in some crazy answer of "idon'tknowhwatdiditbutit'snotGod".
That's crazy, fuzzy logic.
Yours is fuzzy logic, specifically an argument from incredulity as well as a false dichotomy. First, you set up the false dichotomy by setting out two possibilities and saying it has to be only those two, with no support as to why. Then, you assume number 2 is impossible, without proof, which is your argument from incredulity. Your logic means nothing here because you base it on wildly simplistic assumptions instead of proven statements.
And then you criticize us for not adopting your overly simplistic point of view based on logical fallacies and wishful thinking. The fool hath debated with his heart, instead of his mind.
Problem is, atheists don't want to think logically on this. Try it, it's not hard.
If you've got 2 choices:
1. God exists and created it.
2. Everything just happened.
If we know that #2 is impossible. #1 has to be the answer until a better answer can be found. Instead you want to pull in some crazy answer of "idon'tknowhwatdiditbutit'snotGod".
That's crazy, fuzzy logic.
No, it is your "logic" that is flawed and fuzzy, as usual. For # 1, there are countless other Gods that could be possible, not just yours. And I hate to break it to you (not really) but your god is FAR FAR FAR from being the most likely or logical candidate.
#2 is operating under your human understanding. Everything could indeed have "just happened" by our perception. If "it just is" is good enough for your sky fairy, it's good enough for the universe.
Cause/Effect states that everything that exists was caused by something. You believe that regarding your computer on your desk, the car in your garage, etc.
...but we know that they were 'created' by someone because they are inanimate objects and do not occur naturally.
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We know the universe couldn't have cuased itself.
We don't know anything of the sort...but even if you are correct, it doesn't follow that it was caused by supernatural entities much less that it was the supernatural entity that YOU believe in.
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The only logical conclusion is that SOMETHING caused it.
Give me an alternative to God and we'll talk.
I would surmise that something caused it to exist.
The fallacy here is that you are noting that the universe exists and then jumping to the conclusion that there was a time when it did not exist. How do you know that it hasn't always existed in some shape or other?
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If you can give me a better cause, lay it on me. Until then I'll believe the only possible one.
Again you jump to the conclusion that there was a 'cause'. Why could it not always have been there?
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Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill
Beyond that... under your cause/effect theory, if everything had to have a creator, who created God? Either that theory is not true, or someone had to create your creator.
Exactly! It is a well word argument amongst theists that the universe must have been 'created' because everything has to have a creator. This falls on its face when Boxcar's question is put to them. If everything has to have a creator then so must the creator. This leaves us with 2 options:
1. We have an endless regression of creators.
2. You stop at one particular creator that doesn't need a creator (which is what theists do)
...but as soon as the theist does that he defeats his own argument that everything must have a creator. If his particular deity can exist without a creator, why can't the universe.
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Originally Posted by kdbrich
Problem is, atheists don't want to think logically on this. Try it, it's not hard.
If you've got 2 choices:
1. God exists and created it.
2. Everything just happened.
...or 3. The universe has always been there.
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If we know that #2 is impossible. #1 has to be the answer until a better answer can be found.
We do not know that #2 is "impossible" but if it is, what do you think is more logical...
1. A supernatural entity that has never been shown to exist did it.
2. The universe has always existed in some shape or form.
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Think about this. You've got 2 choices.
Three at least!
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Originally Posted by kdbrich
No.....it's called faith.
Faith is the last refuge of those that have had their arguments defeated by reason and logic
If you think there is a God, how did he get here? By your logic, there must necessarily have been a God before him, right?
Of course, Boxcar, but you're appealing to the selective intellect of a fundy. They claim logic in yelling that "It can't have just come from nowhere because that's impossible!"
But then, they insist that it all came from nowhere, created in an instant, bah-zillions of galaxies, planets, suns, gas balls that we'll never see, by a Creator who came form where again? Nowhere?
As to kd's absurd points, he is just showing his spectacularly limited imagination. Having a vivid imagination to consider all the possibilites is a sort of prerequisite for becoming an intellectutal, certainly a scientist.
We scientists and rationalists also understand that there are doubtless countless additional possibilities that simply exceed our current human intellectual capacity to understand. I, for instance, realize that there has to be some rational theory about infinity, but for the life of me, I can't get to a rational answer. Given my limited IQ.
My intellectual failings, and those of my cat who can't understand my DVD player, does not conflate with there being a God by default. That solution is strictly for the "faint of head", the "weak of imagination".
To happily accept and defend the severe limitations in thinking imposed by Christians, especially when their 'text book" was written in a time of highly limited knowledge (they would have been pressed to explain how or why a candle burns much less the possibliites for the origins of the Universe) is to embrace ignorance and to honor it as the status quo.
I and most others here can easily come up with many alternatives:
Aliens initiated it, black hole collapse, parallel universe collapse, parallel universe creation, a castastrophic shift in the space-time continuum, the repeated birth and deaths of the universe, the transcendence of a unstable Universal dimension, a fold in the gameboard...
And yet, the only possibility you accept , with extreme prejudice I might add, is also the least likely one, when viewed from a rational perspective.
But it did have it's many early illiterate adherents (who also were the authors of their imagined version of it), and you do want a nice warm "home" to run to.
If god does exist, as defined as "the creator of the universe", then he is a scientist in a laboratory in a parallel or alternate universe. He was experimenting in a laboratory, created our universe as a byproduct of his current experiment, said the local equivalent of "hmmm...very interesting", recorded the data, and then went home for the day.
He isn't all knowing, in fact, he doesn't even know he created a universe; and he isn't all powerful. Therefore, there is no point worshiping him, or praying to him, or anything else.
god was doing it sort of like how Frankenstein created his 'monster'?
I believe in the bang, the big bang and it took life millions of years to even get started and lifeforms could have been so different from what they are now, if one little molecule was different...but things are the way they are and life started by accident on our planet. Many planets have no life...why would some god, while experimenting with ribs and dirt, not have created life on all planets while he was at it? I'd see him doing a bit of this and a bit of that here and there to see how it would prosper...You know, try things... if you have the power to create life would you just create one planet full and then stop? surely if he had other planets full of humans they'd come to tell us about their god buy now??? And lo and behold we would see it was the same one....
god was doing it sort of like how Frankenstein created his 'monster'?
I believe in the bang, the big bang and it took life millions of years to even get started and lifeforms could have been so different from what they are now, if one little molecule was different...but things are the way they are and life started by accident on our planet. Many planets have no life...why would some god, while experimenting with ribs and dirt, not have created life on all planets while he was at it? I'd see him doing a bit of this and a bit of that here and there to see how it would prosper...You know, try things... if you have the power to create life would you just create one planet full and then stop? surely if he had other planets full of humans they'd come to tell us about their god buy now??? And lo and behold we would see it was the same one....
See, the argument against this is that you are trying to apply logic to theism. It has no place there.
Okay, prove to us that Jesus did not define a fool.
the only thing that mythological beings define is the nature of mythological beings. It has no bearing in real life.
uh, with the possible exception of "The Tao of Poo" (as in Winnie the....) much more believable than the christer bible. My 8 yr old niece turned me on to it. Valuable life lessons like "always share your cookies with friends".
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