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well if someone gets in my face and tries to convert me, I will speak up and tell them to 'save it'..
It's sometimes a bit tricky to decide on the right way to handle it. I suppose I welcome the discussion. I think it's important. If a person doesn't want to discuss I won't force it. I am not too inclined to parachute into a theist forum and start flaming. I think it works quite well to sit in a forum like this and let the Elders and saints come and try to earn their Brownie points doing battle with the godless. Random factors Bless the internet! There are more and more of us doing their best to show that in everything but Blind Faith (TM. Vatican but it's now free use) they have the best arguments.
Well, after sludging through 10 pages of psuedo-intellectual arguments about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, I'll try to get back to the original question here ...
In my experience, some (not all) agnostics regard atheists as fence-sitting "chicken atheists," while some agnostics (again, not all) view atheists as having as much faith in their nonbelief as religious people do in their belief. But in general, the two seem to get along just fine.
Well, after sludging through 10 pages of psuedo-intellectual arguments about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, I'll try to get back to the original question here ...
In my experience, some (not all) agnostics regard atheists as fence-sitting "chicken atheists," while some agnostics (again, not all) view atheists as having as much faith in their nonbelief as religious people do in their belief. But in general, the two seem to get along just fine.
This happened before. You must mean:
"some (not all) atheists regard agnostics as fence-sitting "chicken atheists," while some agnostics (again, not all) view atheists as having as much faith in their nonbelief as religious people do in their belief."
If so. "atheists regard agnostics as fence-sitting chicken atheists" Is unpleasant but essentially right. Agnosticism logically requires non- belief.
While "while some agnostics (again, not all) view atheists as having as much faith in their nonbelief as religious people do in their belief." is essentially illogical as all that one needs to be atheist is to find all the claims of theism to be inadequately supported.
However, there is something understandable about that view "atheists (have) as much faith in their nonbelief as religious people do in their belief." because a lot of belief is invested in the alternative worldview (if I may put it that way) to 'Faith'. That worldview has to be the rational one.
Atheists do have faith in the rational worldview and theists have faith in an irrational one. True they do misuse the rational worldview in beginning with a Faith view and looking for anything that might support it. Atheism (not neccessarily atheists) begins with no assumptions and then test the claims of theism and finds they have no support.
With no support for the claims for 'god' not - knowing whether there is a god or not is the only logical conclusion. That is what agnosticism is.
Not knowing logically requires non- believing. That is what atheism is.
If any agnostics consider there is something wrong abot atheists' 'faith' in their logical and rational worldview, it is the agnostic that needs to rethink the logic of their position, not the atheist.
If you're in one camp, share your views on the other.
Well, I'm agnostic... maybe I am a "wimp" for not embracing the atheist view. Actually, I think people who are atheist are... essentially... for lack of a better term... brave. To just come to a conclusion that there is no god and to be solid in their convictions... I don't know, I admire that. If an atheist thinks I'm a "chicken" for being agnostic, well, it doesn't matter to me anyway what people think of my beliefs (or lack thereof) and maybe they're right.
It isn't brave, just logically inevitable. You don't need to be brave to say that you don't believe in fairies or fire-breathing dragons. You'd have to be quite brave to say that you did.
I have to insist that understanding the logical framework of atheism and agnosticism would make it clear that atheism and agnosticism are on the same logical page. All that is required is to understand that being unsure whether there is any kind of 'god' or not (forget about a particular 'God') requires the abeyance of belief in it. That's what atheism is.
Of course, one could say they were persuaded by the first cause or some points of the ID argument and be an agnostic Theist. It's not what I would see as a logical stance but it's understandable and I wouldn't actually have a great problem with it.
It isn't brave, just logically inevitable. You don't need to be brave to say that you don't believe in fairies or fire-breathing dragons. You'd have to be quite brave to say that you did.
I have to insist that understanding the logical framework of atheism and agnosticism would make it clear that atheism and agnosticism are on the same logical page. All that is required is to understand that being unsure whether there is any kind of 'god' or not (forget about a particular 'God') requires the abeyance of belief in it. That's what atheism is.
Of course, one could say they were persuaded by the first cause or some points of the ID argument and be an agnostic Theist. It's not what I would see as a logical stance but it's understandable and I wouldn't actually have a great problem with it.
You have way too much time on your hands. I gave a compliment and you found a way to make it suck. Thanks. Jerk.
I'm sorry it got up your nose. It wasn't intended to. It just struck me that it is was a bit off - line to imply that atheism was some sort of going out on a limb that required bravery of some kind. It is really just inevitable, I'd say.
Of course, it's probably true that, once having gone atheist it can call for a bit of resolve.
I was atheist, then switched to pantheism, then changed to agnostic, and now am back to atheist. I think I came full circle lol. There's nothing wrong with agnosticism, people have every right to believe what they want. It's only when people try to push their beliefs on others or hurt others in the name of their beliefs that it becomes a problem.
AREQUIPA- Don't feel bad, you didn't say anything rude or wrong. I think mommabear read something into your post that wasn't there. Unfortunately, that happens a lot on net discussions.
If you're in one camp, share your views on the other.
I am an atheist, I don't look at other peoples beliefs and make decisions about them unless they are trying to force their beliefs on me. I just don't care, people have to live the way they feel is right and be on with it, leave me alone because I have spent alot of time thinking through what I believe and why.
I think its PURE arrogance to say that I know what is right for someone else to think and live. Thats just NOT me, unfortunately it is the way alot of people live, they think the sun shines out of their posterior and that they alone know the truth, what a load of bullox.
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Actually, I think people who are atheist are... essentially... for lack of a better term... brave. To just come to a conclusion that there is no god and to be solid in their convictions... I don't know, I admire that. If an atheist thinks I'm a "chicken" for being agnostic, well, it doesn't matter to me anyway what people think of my beliefs (or lack thereof) and maybe they're right.
