Atlanta vs Charlotte for 'King of the South' (Marietta, Greensboro: unemployment, taxis)

[neil0311]

Originally Posted by Mutiny77

I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying that it really has nothing to do with "Atlanta vs. Charlotte" specifically.

Well sure it does, in that we're discussing the differences between the two metros and how the attributes of each makes it "King of the South" (a term I don't particularly care for anyway).

[MathmanMathman]

Originally Posted by Big Aristotle

I live in Charlotte but love Atlanta. Reading through this thread is like watching an older brother beat a younger brother in basketball while taunting him about being inadequate. Atlanta is 3x the size of Charlotte, why even compare? C'mon folks, 3x the size is de facto KING between the two places as far as nightlife, diversity and city amenities.

Regionally, we need each area to to thrive, Nashville, Raleigh, Charlotte, Richmond, etc. and the big ATL.

Many NE'ers have a warped perception of Atlanta/south. Not too long ago (30-40 years), yep, that's what Atlanta looked liked -> 2012 Charlotte (save the great local universities in Atlanta).

After living in DC for years and battling traffic, Charlotte was the answer for me. 30-40 years from now, Charlotte will probably be a traffic mess.

I'm thinking that that area might grow to be Raleigh-Greensboro-Charlotte. That along with Duke, UNC, and NCSU could make it Atlanta's match. Although it's strange that North Carolina has no major seaport city.

[testa50]

Originally Posted by MathmanMathman

I'm thinking that that area might grow to be Raleigh-Greensboro-Charlotte. That along with Duke, UNC, and NCSU could make it Atlanta's match. Although it's strange that North Carolina has no major seaport city.

Sprawl does add a bizarre aspect to these conversations. Where do the amenities of one city begin and end?

I mean, Barrow County, which separates Gwinnett from Clarke County (Athens), is approaching Fayette County in terms of density and will almost certainly surpass it by 2020 (50% growth rate compared to 18%). At what point does UGA and downtown Athens start to be considered an asset of Atlanta?

[MathmanMathman]

Originally Posted by testa50

Sprawl does add a bizarre aspect to these conversations. Where do the amenities of one city begin and end?

I mean, Barrow County, which separates Gwinnett from Clarke County (Athens), is approaching Fayette County in terms of density and will almost certainly surpass it by 2020 (50% growth rate compared to 18%). At what point does UGA and downtown Athens start to be considered an asset of Atlanta?

Well, technically it is Dallas-Fort Worth and Minneapolis-St Paul. I think there is already talk of Athens-Atlanta. What's interesting in NC is the merging of these multiple MSAs into a CSA. Charlotte is certainly growing but Raleigh is also on a fast track.

[JoeP]

NC is not merging anything.

MSAs and CMSAs are Census defined.

Athens will be part of metro Atlanta if the criteria to includes its county are met. One significant factor is commuting patterns. If x percentage of people from county commute to the core county of a metro etc, they are added.

There are similar metrics in their definitions of CMSAs.

However GA did merge some cities into counties. Athens being one of them.

[MathmanMathman]

Originally Posted by JoeP

NC is not merging anything.

MSAs and CMSAs are Census defined.

Athens will be part of metro Atlanta if the criteria to includes its county are met. One significant factor is commuting patterns. If x percentage of people from county commute to the core county of a metro etc, they are added.

There are similar metrics in their definitions of CMSAs.

However GA did merge some cities into counties. Athens being one of them.

Yeah, we know that. Just talking of "merging" in a de facto sense. We're not merging Marietta with Atlanta but Marietta is in "Atlanta". The way NC is developing I could see a continuous urban area stretching from Charlotte to Raleigh.

[JoeP]

It is already is. It's called the I-85 corridor.

[testa50]

Originally Posted by MathmanMathman

Yeah, we know that. Just talking of "merging" in a de facto sense. We're not merging Marietta with Atlanta but Marietta is in "Atlanta". The way NC is developing I could see a continuous urban area stretching from Charlotte to Raleigh.

Possible, but still far off (not 2020, maybe 2030?)

It's probably closer to happening than, say, Atlanta and Chattanooga merging. But not that much closer. Rowan County, which makes up 20 miles along I-85, is sitting at sub-300 ppsm and only grew 6% in the last census--quite slow. Counties like Gordon and Bartow (between Atlanta & Chattanooga) are lower density (around 200 ppsm) but faster growing (~30% over the last census).

Actually, the whole Piedmont Crescent would have some chance of growing together in the next ~30 years if South Carolina would get its act together. People constantly rag on Georgia/Atlanta's economic performance, but SC has been doing especially poorly, both during the recession and before it.

[cwkimbro]

Well... theoretically

we are talking about the social and economic influences of one area on another (and vice versa).

For a long time Athens has been a big part of that as it is a huge supplier of our well-educated workers. In many ways Atlanta has held them back, because there isn't much incentive to locate a company there when the Atlanta area is so close by. However, Atlanta's proximity has made UGA take off as a major university as well.

In many ways we need to remember cities still influence each other. We influence Charlotte (and vice versa). We do business back and forth ... we don't live in a self-contained bubble from each other, nor are we completely self-efficient at producing goods and services without the help of other cities, metros, and even countries.

There are probably a few people (not many, but a few) that actively commute back and forth between these cities on a normal basis (some of the frequent fliers I run into, while flying alot has shown this).

Athens would have even more. In fact there are many families where one person commutes into Atlanta and the spouse commutes to UGA/Athens and they live somewhere like Lawrenceville. (when the Sugarloaf pkwy extension is constructed this will seem even less absurd).

So in a small way the lines of what is a self-contained city or not is blurred all the time. (I actually work for a company in NYC with no presence in Atlanta at all and fly off to job sites, which are often not even in NY either.)

Now the census still needs a way of measuring different geographic areas separately and they also need a way to draw boundaries in a less subjective manner. This is what Joe is starting to talk about. The simple operational definition. However, influence exists both before and after meeting the operation definition.

One part of that operational definition is 15% of the commuters in the county commute to the core counties of a MSA.

However, increasingly they are also looking at the physical boundaries of an "urban area." This becomes very important when showing a difference of PMSAs.

Rapidly there is a small "urban area" starting to build along 316 with all of the exurban neighborhoods and retail stores popping up. I think that is part the question... when will these two urban areas connect?

Every year I go back to Athens for something I see more and more stuff built in the corridor.

Now lets look at Hall county really quick. In the north you have Gainesville with its own distinct "urban area." In the south we have Flowery Branch with many commuters into Gwinnett and N. Fulton. That is why it is it's own PMSA. It is distinctly it's own MSA, but it also meets the commuting requirements of being apart of Atlanta as a whole.

What will first happen in the future for the census (operationally) for the Athens MSA to be a PMSA is more commuters from Athens need to start commuting to Gwinnett. I think for it to reach a 15% threshold will take a long time. Something would have to happen to draw the two together... like a catalyst to start up a bio-medical research corridor between Atlanta-Athens. Business and state boosters definitely sold the idea, but it never took hold.

I need to go over the operational definitions more carefully to figure out exactly what happens when Barrow County has 15% commuting to Oconee/Clarke and 15% is commuting into Gwinnett/Atlanta/N. Atlanta.

I feel confident in saying Athens will never be apart of the Atlanta MSA (*pmsa) given that local opinion matters on defining PMSAs. I feel local opinion will always see the core of Athens as a separate city from Atlanta.

And lastly, the other issue is the eastern half of Barrow county. There isn't much demand for the suburbs to expand there. There is still plenty of building room in the western half (alot in fact). In Athens, Oconee County in particular, there is plenty of building room as well as excellent schools and low land values. There isn't much incentive yet for Athens commuters to grow into Barrow too much.

The biggest thing that bucks that trend that I see built are retirement communities. They want cheap land, cheap taxes, and don't care about daily commutes or schools. That way they can offer retirees more amenities for less. It is mostly located just inside Barrow country from Oconee near Athens.

[Stars&StripesForever]

Originally Posted by MathmanMathman

Yeah, we know that. Just talking of "merging" in a de facto sense. We're not merging Marietta with Atlanta but Marietta is in "Atlanta". The way NC is developing I could see a continuous urban area stretching from Charlotte to Raleigh.

I'd say Kings Mountain to eastern Wake County (just east of Raleigh) That'll probably happen around mid-century, however, you can see it beginning to develop that way.