Johns Creek mayor pitches 728-acre redevelopment called 'The District' (Atlanta: hotel, houses)

[cqholt]

Do these fake downtowns ever work? I mean are they truly a live, work, play/walkable are or do they still force many people to drive and park, then explore and get back in their cars to go home? Traditional downtowns grew organically because of commerce and trade. This is a pie in the sky idea, because the size is too big for a city that's tax base is majority residential.

[ATLJR]

@ cqholt

I think over time, anything can work. If you have a plan and allow that area to grow into an urban environment, sure, it can work, but what does "work" mean? Does Avalon "work"? Does downtown Woodstock "work"?

With that being said, obviously this is a grandiose vision, with the comparisons being hyperbolic statements at best. What they want is to attract more corporate businesses and commercial space to areas where, theoretically, density can increase. The city, for the most part, is built and, as the article states, 80%+ of that is low density residential and not viable long term for a city. Existing SFH neighborhoods aren't going to be torn down, so you're left with increasing density in a few of the commercial areas. This isn't to imply they'll be building, or even want, a wall to wall urban experience, but simply something more akin to The Forum, with some residential attached, or perhaps Avalon if they decide to go with more density?

The issue they face is this area will never be connected to the rest of the region via rail, so it's not going to develop like Dunwoody, Buckhead, etc. Not that they want it to, but if anyone had any ideas of that, they can put those to sleep. While the area is part of Fulton, those has MARTA bus access, the urban environment is not conducive to an effective or efficient bus system. Which means, density would be limited, access would be limited, and traffic congestion would be problematic.

But, if they're able to say, double the density of the area, would that be a success? I don't know what sort of tax revenue they project needing long term, but I think doubling the density is highly doable and would probably be labeled as a success, but this will never be anything "urban".

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by ATLJR

@ cqholt

I think over time, anything can work. If you have a plan and allow that area to grow into an urban environment, sure, it can work, but what does "work" mean? Does Avalon "work"? Does downtown Woodstock "work"?

With that being said, obviously this is a grandiose vision, with the comparisons being hyperbolic statements at best. What they want is to attract more corporate businesses and commercial space to areas where, theoretically, density can increase. The city, for the most part, is built and, as the article states, 80%+ of that is low density residential and not viable long term for a city. Existing SFH neighborhoods aren't going to be torn down, so you're left with increasing density in a few of the commercial areas. This isn't to imply they'll be building, or even want, a wall to wall urban experience, but simply something more akin to The Forum, with some residential attached, or perhaps Avalon if they decide to go with more density?

The issue they face is this area will never be connected to the rest of the region via rail, so it's not going to develop like Dunwoody, Buckhead, etc. Not that they want it to, but if anyone had any ideas of that, they can put those to sleep. While the area is part of Fulton, those has MARTA bus access, the urban environment is not conducive to an effective or efficient bus system. Which means, density would be limited, access would be limited, and traffic congestion would be problematic.

But, if they're able to say, double the density of the area, would that be a success? I don't know what sort of tax revenue they project needing long term, but I think doubling the density is highly doable and would probably be labeled as a success, but this will never be anything "urban".

Woodstock is an organic downtown, Avalon is new so we shall see if it passes the test of time. I was thinking note of SS city center, Suwanee, or other cities who's downtown commercial districts are not founded around traditional railroad stations.

[ATLJR]

Originally Posted by cqholt

Woodstock is an organic downtown, Avalon is new so we shall see if it passes the test of time. I was thinking note of SS city center, Suwanee, or other cities who's downtown commercial districts are not founded around traditional railroad stations.

I would look more to Cobb Galleria, Buckhead, and Dunwoody / Perimeter.

And Woodstock organic? I know something existed historically, but for the most part that is newer, developer driven. That didn't develop "organically" around a railroad station, but rather was the trend for "urban experiences" that drove that development.

[ATLTJL]

Do these fake downtowns ever work?

I think the first thing we would have to do is define what makes a downtown real or fake.

Downtown Suwanee is definitely on railroad tracks (not sure if it was ever a station), but Duluth and Norcross definitely were. Does that make them REAL downtowns? If you showed me downtown Norcross vs. downtown Suwanee, I wouldn't really be able to tell too much of a difference....or even with downtown Decatur, which you could actually argue is fake because it's been completely reworked over the years.

But all that aside, I can tell you how Gwinnett looks at these things, and I think it's not too different than how Johns Creek is approaching things.

The big problem here is that young people aren't staying. Why is that a problem? Because they like to spend their disposable income on things like eating out, entertainment, etc. Established families are great, but they don't tend to support the kind of businesses that make a town viable as much as young people do. So the question is, how do we keep young people from moving away?

Make it like midtown? Ain't gonna happen. Be like Buckhead? In your dreams. So what they do is try to make it the kind of place that is convenient and fun for young people who have business in the area. Let's look at Johns Creek and use Saia as an example. Saia is a national LTL (less than truckload) freight company headquartered in Johns Creek. Of course, it employs truck drivers, but HQ employs dispatchers, marketing people, benefits administrators, and you know the drill. Let's say you're a 24 year old and you get an HR job at Saia. Great! But you'll probably live somewhere else and commute there.

The goal is to make the area attractive enough to where young people will WANT to LIVE and WORK there. It doesn't have to be perfect, of course young people will still go into cities once in a while when they really want to party. The point is to make it a place where they can live in a neat apartment, have bars to go to happy hours at, live music venues, and just go to town once or twice a month. The livability factor has to outweigh the commute factor.

Of course, the other side of the coin is to attract more Saias to employ those young people. It's kind of a chicken and egg phenomenon and nobody really knows which to build first, so they're sort of building it all at the same time.

This is why I've staunchly asserted that everybody completely underestimated what a tremendous blow it was to Gwinnett to lose NCR. When you have that many people working in one place, it makes redevelopment of an area like Gwinnett Place Mall much more attractive. If they could make it a cool live/work/play area, you'd have hundreds of people at NCR who might consider something like that to be close to work. Now, well, not so much....

Anyway, that's the way I see it. Cities like Johns Creek aren't trying to be more family friendly, they've already got the lock on that. What they're trying to do is make their areas more attractive for young singles and young families. In a lot of ways, they have a huge advantage starting from scratch because they can master plan it around what works for today's society. They just have to plan it right.

[BR Valentine]

Originally Posted by jsvh

Reading his statements, sounds like the mayor has some really big aspirations for this:



I will be interested to see if they get developers on board with something this big.

Also, where exactly is "Technology Park" in John's Creek? I don't see anything on the map that indicates it.

It's on the east side of GA 141 from Bell Rd to McGinnis Ferry and extends east to where McGinnis Ferry and Technology Circle intersect.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by ATLTJL

I think the first thing we would have to do is define what makes a downtown real or fake.

Downtown Suwanee is definitely on railroad tracks (not sure if it was ever a station), but Duluth and Norcross definitely were. Does that make them REAL downtowns? If you showed me downtown Norcross vs. downtown Suwanee, I wouldn't really be able to tell too much of a difference....or even with downtown Decatur, which you could actually argue is fake because it's been completely reworked over the years.

But all that aside, I can tell you how Gwinnett looks at these things, and I think it's not too different than how Johns Creek is approaching things.

The big problem here is that young people aren't staying. Why is that a problem? Because they like to spend their disposable income on things like eating out, entertainment, etc. Established families are great, but they don't tend to support the kind of businesses that make a town viable as much as young people do. So the question is, how do we keep young people from moving away?

Make it like midtown? Ain't gonna happen. Be like Buckhead? In your dreams. So what they do is try to make it the kind of place that is convenient and fun for young people who have business in the area. Let's look at Johns Creek and use Saia as an example. Saia is a national LTL (less than truckload) freight company headquartered in Johns Creek. Of course, it employs truck drivers, but HQ employs dispatchers, marketing people, benefits administrators, and you know the drill. Let's say you're a 24 year old and you get an HR job at Saia. Great! But you'll probably live somewhere else and commute there.

The goal is to make the area attractive enough to where young people will WANT to LIVE and WORK there. It doesn't have to be perfect, of course young people will still go into cities once in a while when they really want to party. The point is to make it a place where they can live in a neat apartment, have bars to go to happy hours at, live music venues, and just go to town once or twice a month. The livability factor has to outweigh the commute factor.

Of course, the other side of the coin is to attract more Saias to employ those young people. It's kind of a chicken and egg phenomenon and nobody really knows which to build first, so they're sort of building it all at the same time.

This is why I've staunchly asserted that everybody completely underestimated what a tremendous blow it was to Gwinnett to lose NCR. When you have that many people working in one place, it makes redevelopment of an area like Gwinnett Place Mall much more attractive. If they could make it a cool live/work/play area, you'd have hundreds of people at NCR who might consider something like that to be close to work. Now, well, not so much....

Anyway, that's the way I see it. Cities like Johns Creek aren't trying to be more family friendly, they've already got the lock on that. What they're trying to do is make their areas more attractive for young singles and young families. In a lot of ways, they have a huge advantage starting from scratch because they can master plan it around what works for today's society. They just have to plan it right.

I am referring to the Suwanee city center project that is brand new. Also, there are a lot of older buildings in downtown Woodstock so there was commerce there before the modern apartments.

[ATLTJL]

So the metric we are using to determine whether a downtown in real or fake is how old the buildings are?

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by ATLTJL

So the metric we are using to determine whether a downtown in real or fake is how old the buildings are?

If the downtown existed before white/suburban flight would be better.

[ATLTJL]

With all due respect, I can't keep up with your perceptions of what is real or what is fake. It seems to be based on a personal agenda over any type of meaningful measure.