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They’re building corporate offices, not an operational facility. They don’t need freight facilities st a corporate building/campus. The decisions about operations and corporate function siting are very, very different. Besides, Amazon’s biggest growth areas are web services and streaming/content type stuff. The HQ2, like the existing HQ, is going to be in a big city that will have traffic. Most now think the DC area will get it. Their traffic is at least as bad as Atlanta’s and freight handling in the area is worse than in Atlanta.
I was about to just say this. I've come across so many people who can't think about Amazon without thinking about the warehouses. I tell them to think of Amazon as our modern-day Sears, and they need office space that would be the equivalent of two Sears Towers. They aren't trying to build something like Ponce City Market's original use for Sears to fulfill orders.
You are absolutely correct! He even said that historic buildings represented racism.. imagine that..racist buildings.
Reminds me of a guy from high school some 25 years ago. Very proper black guy. He was touring our new gymnasium the day it opened with a group of school administrators, and noticed the two-tone wall painting job. It was a darker beige on the bottom half, and a light beige on the upper half. He stopped, pointed at the wall, and said to everyone present "these walls are racist. You can see how the light color is on top of the dark." And he wasn't joking.
Tolls. Even Nashville built half an outer loop. Memphis is working on an outer loop. Houston is working on its 3rd. Dallas is working on a more or less 3rd (inner loop-Loop 12-isn't all freeway). Boston has multiple loops.
I personally understand what you mean, primarily when you say Houston the first thing that comes to mind is the Katy freeway, its massive overhaul and current gridlock..which brings the whole question of which came first the chicken or the egg riddle, as they expanded the highway in anticipation of growth..the growth came and now they say that the growth happened because the expansion of the highway..but putting both of those asside. I do think their system would work alot better if it were combined with a strong passenger rail network, although I would recommend commuter and not light rail.
I think the highway expansions were necessary, however; I think they should have been done in a different way... More tolled lanes and the expansion of a commuter rail.. the tolled lanes to detur driving unless necessary but still providing the redundancy of alternative routes as Houston's highway network has.. and the commuter rail to attract commuters who were previously drivers into a more reliable means of commute versus sitting in traffic in GP lanes.
Houston is about the only city that has reduced traffic congestion. They reduced congestion from the 80s until things really took off about 10 years ago. They are still doing a better job than comparable cities in slowing the growth of congestion. And the Katy Freeway was gridlocked 6 days a week prior to the expansion, every day but Sunday. It was like driving in Atlanta. And despite MARTA's HRT, Atlanta ranked 91 of the top 100 metros in the % of jobs you could get to on mass transit. On transportation, Atlanta is pretty much the city nobody wants to be like.
While I too cannot confirm what has or hasn't been said or decided I just have to ask:
Why do you think this is dumb? Amazon handles a crapton of freight traffic (I know this because my father delivers for them.) If they built a multi million dollar headquarter in a location of which would become logistically infeasible for them to conduct operations, wouldn't that in itself be dumb?
I mean face it, Atlanta has a serious traffic problem and I encounter it every single day even during non commute hours there is always atleast 2 major traffic jams in the metro. And it is pretty obvious that I-285 is well over capacity and cannot handle additional trucks.
An outer perimeter (or at the very minimal - although not prefered - Truck lanes) IS needed in a city this size. We're pushing 6 million people on infrastructure only designed to handle 2.5 million.
I'm personally hoping Atlanta realizes that its logistical transportation issues can deture future businesses from considering it and that it makes a serious effort to make improvements.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gulch
There is zero chance the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc gets built within the next 30-40 years (GDOT actually just demapped/defunded the last portion in Cherokee not too long ago).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otakumaster
He’s not wrong overall.
I was just in LA in the traffic wasn’t even that much worse than here.
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Originally Posted by cqholt
How do we pay for it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Need4Camaro
This is what I am trying to emphasis so much to people as I too have been to Los Angeles and I find L.A to be easier to get around than Atlanta overall IF YOU'RE NOT COMMUTING TO A CITY CENTER as L.A has an abundance of alternative routes. Also I entered L.A. around 4pm rush hour and traffic moved pretty decently all the way to the beach. Its no coincidence either as I've been to L.A. multiple times and each time I have had a better driving experience than I have had in Atlanta.
At this point it would be unrealistic to expect it to be done..although it would be nice... The only way I could actually "promote" an outer perimeter was it would need to be completely tolled and limited exits, kind of like Florida's Turnpike (there's only like 5 exits on the turnpike throughout the entire metro of Orlando and they mainly only service to other major highways that connect you to your destination rather than taking you directly to your destination, same goes for PA's turnpike).. With very strict zoning restrictions around the entry / exit points making it purely designed only for cross commuting traffic and trucks...
As for paying for it.. It would likely have to be financed out to a major investor and at that built in stages much like Houston's outer beltway (Grand Pkwy TX 99) was. Areas on the southern side of Atlanta would be easy, areas on the northern side would be nightmarish.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Need4Camaro
I personally understand what you mean, primarily when you say Houston the first thing that comes to mind is the Katy freeway, its massive overhaul and current gridlock..which brings the whole question of which came first the chicken or the egg riddle, as they expanded the highway in anticipation of growth..the growth came and now they say that the growth happened because the expansion of the highway..but putting both of those asside. I do think their system would work alot better if it were combined with a strong passenger rail network, although I would recommend commuter and not light rail.
I think the highway expansions were necessary, however; I think they should have been done in a different way... More tolled lanes and the expansion of a commuter rail.. the tolled lanes to detur driving unless necessary but still providing the redundancy of alternative routes as Houston's highway network has.. and the commuter rail to attract commuters who were previously drivers into a more reliable means of commute versus sitting in traffic in GP lanes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2
Tolls. Even Nashville built half an outer loop. Memphis is working on an outer loop. Houston is working on its 3rd. Dallas is working on a more or less 3rd (inner loop-Loop 12-isn't all freeway). Boston has multiple loops.
During the era when it was proposed--the 1990s when Metro Atlanta's developmental pattern was out of control, developers ruled (especially in Gwinnett)--I thought the Outer Perimeter was a bad idea and should not have been built. It would've been horrible for North Georgia.
However, now that we have a saner approach to development and a metro area that seems to be becoming more open to alternative sorts of transport, I think the Outer Perimeter would be a great idea--and really, a necessity for the State of Georgia.
Keeping these tenets in mind:
1. Built further out than originally proposed.
2. Very limited access with very limited exits.
3. Encircled by a "greenbelt" which will preserve greenspace and offer an awesome mega-circular hiking trail for North Georgia. {this would not be an urban growth boundary...it would just be preserved greenspace around the whole Outer Perimeter...preventing crazy sprawl while helping the environment and scenic beauty}
4. The Outer Perimeter would also aid secondary-to-secondary connections in Georgia. For example, an Outer Perimeter would make travel easier between:
a. Rome/Athens
b. Columbus/Athens
c. Macon/Athens
d. Rome/Columbus
e. Gainesville/Rome
f. Macon/Rome
g. etc...
Is our development patterns truly more sane than they were in the 90's?
I guess in ways yes... Things are becoming more dense rather than sprawling further away, although that isn't to say sprawl isn't still happening.. so its kind of difficult for me to say for sure that our explosion in development is becoming more sane, probably yes... but...I still think its fairly rapid at the very least.
As for the Outer Perimeter, Atlanta really needs one. It's inconceivable for a city this size not to have one and especially for it later grow into 7 to 8 million people and still not have one. There's no way our current infrastructure is going to beable to handle that even if we throw in BRT and expand Heavy Rail (although I agree it will definitely be impactful, our highway infrastructure is SEVERELY outdated.)
Is our development patterns truly more sane than they were in the 90's?
I guess in ways yes... Things are becoming more dense rather than sprawling further away, although that isn't to say sprawl isn't still happening.. so its kind of difficult for me to say for sure that our explosion in development is becoming more sane, probably yes... but...I still think its fairly rapid at the very least.
As for the Outer Perimeter, Atlanta really needs one. It's inconceivable for a city this size not to have one and especially for it later grow into 7 to 8 million people and still not have one. There's no way our current infrastructure is going to beable to handle that even if we throw in BRT and expand Heavy Rail (although I agree it will definitely be impactful, our highway infrastructure is SEVERELY outdated.)
Saner? Yes. To what degree...that can be determined.
The point: in the 1990's, the development pattern was insane. Developers were out-of-control. The original Outer Perimeter proposal went fully through northern, western, and southern Gwinnett County with multiple, multiple exits. It was totally a vehicle (no pun intended) to open more land for rapid development and thus increase the coffers of the greedy, power-hungry, out-of-control developers.
There was no sense of limited exits, land preservation, greenspace preservation, etc...
During the era when it was proposed--the 1990s when Metro Atlanta's developmental pattern was out of control, developers ruled (especially in Gwinnett)--I thought the Outer Perimeter was a bad idea and should not have been built. It would've been horrible for North Georgia.
However, now that we have a saner approach to development and a metro area that seems to be becoming more open to alternative sorts of transport, I think the Outer Perimeter would be a great idea--and really, a necessity for the State of Georgia.
Keeping these tenets in mind:
1. Built further out than originally proposed.
2. Very limited access with very limited exits.
3. Encircled by a "greenbelt" which will preserve greenspace and offer an awesome mega-circular hiking trail for North Georgia. {this would not be an urban growth boundary...it would just be preserved greenspace around the whole Outer Perimeter...preventing crazy sprawl while helping the environment and scenic beauty}
4. The Outer Perimeter would also aid secondary-to-secondary connections in Georgia. For example, an Outer Perimeter would make travel easier between:
a. Rome/Athens
b. Columbus/Athens
c. Macon/Athens
d. Rome/Columbus
e. Gainesville/Rome
f. Macon/Rome
g. etc...
#1 and #2 were part of the proposal in the legislature a few years back. It was required to be something like 15 miles beyond 285 (might have been 25). In any event, it put it about 10 miles beyond GA 20.
I think it would actually be preferable closer than originally proposed, to help suburb to suburb commutes, which are becoming more common, in addition to providing an alternative for the truck traffic. It could also keep some of those distribution jobs closer in and more accessible for residents living closer in. For example, it could go along Ronald Reagan Parkway in Gwinnett and by Lithonia on the east side. Ideally, it would run along the Roswell-Milton border on the north.
Saner? Yes. To what degree...that can be determined.
The point: in the 1990's, the development pattern was insane. Developers were out-of-control. The original Outer Perimeter proposal went fully through northern, western, and southern Gwinnett County with multiple, multiple exits. It was totally a vehicle (no pun intended) to open more land for rapid development and thus increase the coffers of the greedy, power-hungry, out-of-control developers.
There was no sense of limited exits, land preservation, greenspace preservation, etc...
I'm reminded of the catch line of the Houston Metro rail vote, "What if we didn't build it and they came anyway?"
Metro Atlanta hasn't built much of any form of transportation since the Olympics and they keep coming. The latest proposals need to result in action if the area isn't going to strangle itself and drive business off. Economic development officials have been saying for years that traffic has discouraged companies from coming here. Similarly, Cumberland/Galleria officials have been saying lack of transit has stifled their growth. I imagine the same is true of Gwinnett Place.
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