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The failures of one or two groups of minorities in America does not imply that the system is rigged or stacked against anyone in an institutional manner. It actually points to there being deeper issues that don't have anything to do with that.
If you don't think there's any institutional stacking of the system against certain ethnic groups, then how do you think the inequity happened?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronricks
I don't think the issue is strictly white people moving out as it is more Asian and South Asian people moving in. Simply saying the white student population percentage is dropping doesn't tell the whole story. Demographic shifts in the city of Atlanta and metro Atlanta have been happening ever since 2000. One group doesn't have to leave for another group to move in and change demographics it isn't that simple and that doesn't tell the whole story. Makes for a great boogeyman though which seems to be what people want on here. The changing demographics of intown Atlanta show this as well more people are simply moving in which are skewing the percentages. This is nothing new.
An example of this is the Grady cluster in Atlanta which is now majority white for the first time in almost 50 years. It's not that anyone has left it is that there just happens to be a combination of:
more white people moving in and more white people sending their kids to the public schools. There is nothing nefarious about that it is just natural change.
I actually have first-hand experience with comments from white parents at certain private schools where they advise other white parents not to go to a certain high-ranking private school because of the racial makeup and perceived competition. There's a strong strain of this attitude among a set of parents (the Buckhead Betty stereotype). The same applies to in-town public schools, but the reasons are different. It's been well-documented that in public schools, there's a tipping point in the ethnic mix that is considered acceptable for white families, and in many instances they stay because of an IB program or some other magnet track that creates two separate student bodies in the same building. Otherwise, they flee to more homogenous communities in the suburbs and exurbs where there are "good schools," which creates disinvestment in their former schools justifying their decision to leave as one based on economic value and not social dynamics.
If you don't think there's any institutional stacking of the system against certain ethnic groups, then how do you think the inequity happened?
I actually have first-hand experience with comments from white parents at certain private schools where they advise other white parents not to go to a certain high-ranking private school because of the racial makeup and perceived competition. There's a strong strain of this attitude among a set of parents (the Buckhead Betty stereotype). The same applies to in-town public schools, but the reasons are different. It's been well-documented that in public schools, there's a tipping point in the ethnic mix that is considered acceptable for white families, and in many instances they stay because of an IB program or some other magnet track that creates two separate student bodies in the same building. Otherwise, they flee to more homogenous communities in the suburbs and exurbs where there are "good schools," which creates disinvestment in their former schools justifying their decision to leave as one based on economic value and not social dynamics.
My children are in the Grady cluster and have been since Kindergarten. Since 2000 there has been a flood of white people moving into the city core of Atlanta. It's no different than the amount of South Asian or Asian families that have been moving into the Johns Creek/Alpharetta/Milton/Roswell area in that same time frame. There is nothing wrong with either scenario nor does either scenario prove there is some nefarious motive. If people like an area for whatever reason be it the schools, amenities, job market etc. the are free to move there. Do you think for one second that the South Asian families would send their kids to an APS school? You seem to not understand that the "tipping point" you are using for one group would be an absolute non starter for another group. Under no circumstances would it be acceptable for a South Asian family to optionally send their kids to an APS school over the schools in Johns Creek. It would never happen. There is a reason that South Asian people move to that one area just like there is a reason that Asian people (specifically Korean) like the Duluth or Suwanee area. It is homogeneous for them.
Why do people keep talking about Black and White? White people are not the highest earners. Plenty of ethnic minorities either native born or not come to America and succeed. It isn't a race thing or racism or institutional racism. If it were these statistics below would not exist. The fact that Indian Americans are the highest and African Americans are the lowest has nothing to do with inequalities. There is more to it.
Okay, can you please answer these questions?
1. Are you trying to say that black people are inherently lazy, inferior, etc.?
2. Are you saying that a racist person would view an Asian or Indian person they same as a Black or Latino person?
3. Of all the ethnic groups on your list, which has endured more hardship and discrimination at the hands of other Americans to the same degree and the same amount of time as Black Americans?
Think about slavery (and all that entails) from 1619 to 1865, Jim Crow laws (look up the laws) from 1866 to 1965, then think about how black people are perceived and have been portrayed in America (particularly the south) from then to this day. Several posters gave several clear examples. Indian or Asian-sounding names do not have the same stigma for some as African-American sounding names. This is because people like you somehow believe that black people are missing something. There is study after study on this.
Before you attempt to disconnect the past from the present, ask yourself how/when did it get this way? When did racism end? And is racism evenly distributed across the board, or is there a hierarchy of prejudices? Why is that? Even in the face of incredible opposition on all levels, Black Americans often have to go above and beyond their white counterparts to succeed. Yet they still do. You break it down to individuals and bring it back to whole race when it is convenient for your point that black people just can't get it together.
As you know, we have communicated off the main forum and I am the first to admit that to you, I'm just a random guy in the internet. But I have recommended several books to you written by black and white scholars that are experts in the very topics we are discussing -- particularly in Atlanta. Yet you refuse to entertain anything that just might challenge your current view -- in essence, proving that you do not want to learn. You do not want to know what we are talking about. You do not what to gain context and better understand. If all these people come on here criticizing your viewpoints, you never once said, "Maybe there's something I'm missing? Let me humor these folks and look into what they are taking about." You are only speaking from your perspective. We get what you are saying loud and clear, yet when I say read this heavily researched book breaking down the nuances of inequality in the American South, you can't be bothered.
For someone who is so quick to spout facts and figures to back your claims, why are you so reluctant to look at the many, many thoroughly researched sources that handily dismantle many/most of your claims regarding race and class? I think you just don't want to know. And therein lies the issue. How can you continue a conversation about something you know so little, and then refuse to educate yourself on what we are even talking about?
1. Are you trying to say that black people are inherently lazy, inferior, etc.?
2. Are you saying that a racist person would view an Asian or Indian person they same as a Black or Latino person?
3. Of all the ethnic groups on your list, which has endured more hardship and discrimination at the hands of other Americans to the same degree and the same amount of time as Black Americans?
Think about slavery (and all that entails) from 1619 to 1865, Jim Crow laws (look up the laws) from 1866 to 1965, then think about how black people are perceived and have been portrayed in America (particularly the south) from then to this day. Several posters gave several clear examples. Indian or Asian-sounding names do not have the same stigma for some as African-American sounding names. This is because people like you somehow believe that black people are missing something. There is study after study on this.
Before you attempt to disconnect the past from the present, ask yourself how/when did it get this way? When did racism end? And is racism evenly distributed across the board, or is there a hierarchy of prejudices? Why is that? Even in the face of incredible opposition on all levels, Black Americans often have to go above and beyond their white counterparts to succeed. Yet they still do. You break it down to individuals and bring it back to whole race when it is convenient for your point that black people just can't get it together.
As you know, we have communicated off the main forum and I am the first to admit that to you, I'm just a random guy in the internet. But I have recommended several books to you written by black and white scholars that are experts in the very topics we are discussing -- particularly in Atlanta. Yet you refuse to entertain anything that just might challenge your current view -- in essence, proving that you do not want to learn. You do not want to know what we are talking about. You do not what to gain context and better understand. If all these people come on here criticizing your viewpoints, you never once said, "Maybe there's something I'm missing? Let me humor these folks and look into what they are taking about." You are only speaking from your perspective. We get what you are saying loud and clear, yet when I say read this heavily researched book breaking down the nuances of inequality in the American South, you can't be bothered.
For someone who is so quick to spout facts and figures to back your claims, why are you so reluctant to look at the many, many thoroughly researched sources that handily dismantle many/most of your claims regarding race and class? I think you just don't want to know. And therein lies the issue. How can you continue a conversation about something you know so little, and then refuse to educate yourself on what we are even talking about?
I'm going to explain it to you very simple from someone whose home and family (and extended family) is interracial. We don't discuss race in our household. We don't place blame or prejudice on anyone. We only focus on what we can control and how to better ourselves. You ask why I don't 'read' what you recommend the answer is because you are asking me to subscribe to things like the 1619 Project which is built on a bunch of lies, mistruths, and half truths to create a false narrative rather than actually look at history in an unbiased fashion. One, that when rebuked the author came out and said it wasn't meant to be historical but more of a "story". "Stories" aren't history.
I have already tried to show you that the world isn't just black and white and there are other people out there. You seem to only focus on one thing black and white and you want people to choose a side. That isn't how America works. There are plenty of other ethnicity out there both native and non native who have no issues thriving here and it isn't because of slavery or Jim Crow. Somewhere along the line we have gone from "not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character" to where where we are now. Civil Rights used to be about treating everyone the same. But today some people are so used to special treatment that equal treatment is considered to be discrimination. It is bordering on the absurd. That is why I won't participate in your little game of question and answer. If you think a black or latino person (your own examples) has it bad here in America I would hate to see what your response would be if forced to live in India, China, South Korea, Japan, Saudi Arabia, Iran etc. America offers far more opportunity than anyplace on planet earth. Lets not forget there is still chattel slavery in Africa to this very day. A practice that was abolished in evil horrible America over 150 years ago. At some point as every passing year goes by that becomes less and less relevant and the present has to start to matter. Ponder that.
I'm going to explain it to you very simple from someone whose home and family (and extended family) is interracial. We don't discuss race in our household. We don't place blame or prejudice on anyone. We only focus on what we can control and how to better ourselves. You ask why I don't 'read' what you recommend the answer is because you are asking me to subscribe to things like the 1619 Project which is built on a bunch of lies, mistruths, and half truths to create a false narrative rather than actually look at history in an unbiased fashion. One, that when rebuked the author came out and said it wasn't meant to be historical but more of a ”story”. ”Stories” aren't history.
I have already tried to show you that the world isn't just black and white and there are other people out there. You seem to only focus on one thing black and white and you want people to choose a side. That isn't how America works. There are plenty of other ethnicity out there both native and non native who have no issues thriving here and it isn't because of slavery or Jim Crow. Somewhere along the line we have gone from ”not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character” to where where we are now. Civil Rights used to be about treating everyone the same. But today some people are so used to special treatment that equal treatment is considered to be discrimination. It is bordering on the absurd. That is why I won't participate in your little game of question and answer. If you think a black or latino person (your own examples) has it bad here in America I would hate to see what your response would be if forced to live in India, China, South Korea, Japan, Saudi Arabia, Iran etc. America offers far more opportunity than anyplace on planet earth. Lets not forget there is still chattel slavery in Africa to this very day. A practice that was abolished in evil horrible America over 150 years ago. At some point as every passing year goes by that becomes less and less relevant and the present has to start to matter. Ponder that.
First paragraph: I mentioned a year and you brought up The 1619 Project, which had nothing to do with what I said. Most of the books I mentioned were out before the 1619 project was even a thing. So what is your next excuse?
I agree the world isn't black and white. I believe you are from NY, which is very ethnically diverse. But in Georgia (Atlanta in particular) although there are pockets and groups of many ethnicities today, it is/was mostly Black and White. Look into why that is. You have no historical context about the city in which you live. I'm not talking about around the world, I'm talking about the history in your own back yard. I'm just saying you are refusing to look at the full picture. If a person is treated or viewed a certain way because of their race, yet nobody talks about race, how does the problem get resolved? Just assume its in their imaginations?
If race wasn't an issue back then, then why did Jim Crow even exist? It had no affect at all? On anyone? Why were so many southerners upset when blacks got the right to vote in 1968? Nobody is asking you or anybody for anything. You are always assuming someone wants a hand out. You asked why black people are disproportionately behind others in certain categories. I (and several others) told you a few reasons, and you are trying to make it seem like we're racist for saying it. Civil Rights is about treating people equally, yet when people talk about the ways people are/were treated unequally, it's suddenly not relevant.
People say the same exact statement in bold about racist white people. Look at the facts. Look at the real historical precedents. I didn't say Blacks and Latinos had it bad in my post. I asked you ”Are you saying that a racist person would view an Asian or Indian person they same as a Black or Latino person?” A question you seemingly cannot answer. Why? Perhaps the answer is a difficult one. Yet, as you said, blacks still continue to overcome this. But is ignoring the past/recent history the answer?
When did chattel slavery in the African countries you referred to start? Was it before colonization? How do you know? What happened to all the people who fought tooth and nail to keep chattel slavery in America? Why was it so hard to end it? Why were laws implemented in the south to keep blacks in servitude for an additional 100 years after that? Did it work? How did it stop? These are the questions that you conveniently glaze over. Is it because you don't know, or because you do not want to know?
Some people just simply like living in the city. Living in the city isn't for everyone, just like living in the suburbs isn't for everyone. I personally like living in the city. But if I left, I would skip the suburbs and move to a rural area. To me, the suburbs are pointless. When I do decide to eat out, or go to a local bar, I'd rather have more community/mom and pop options (which the city and rural areas have) than McDonalds, Applebees, Longhorns, Walmarts, etc. I like community support and knowing we contribute to the neighborhood vs. supporting big corporate companies.
10 or more years ago, I would have agreed with you. And, while there is a grain of truth about the ubiquity of chain restaurants, etc, in the suburbs, that grain has actually gotten smaller since the Great Recession.
"Suburban downtown" might sound like an oxymoron, but they've been making something of a comeback in recent years. Norcross, Duluth, Lawrenceville, Buford, among others, all looked inward at revitalizing the historic mini-urban core to which they owed their original civic identities. Other suburban towns like Suwanee and Sugar Hill have built all-new downtowns which, while they might lack a bit of organic history [in the sense that you'll never, for instance, marvel at having drinks in a space that was a Chevy dealership 70 years earlier], are succeeding in becoming a local community nucleus. Until COVID, downtown Duluth and Norcross, on any Friday or Saturday evening, were quite crowded [and still kind of were last summer]. And all of these downtowns, by-and-large, almost seem to shun those chains you mention in favor of local [or very sub-regional] businesses.
First paragraph: I mentioned a year and you brought up The 1619 Project, which had nothing to do with what I said. Most of the books I mentioned were out before the 1619 project was even a thing. So what is your next excuse?
I agree the world isn't black and white. I believe you are from NY, which is very ethnically diverse. But in Georgia (Atlanta in particular) although there are pockets and groups of many ethnicities today, it is/was mostly Black and White. Look into why that is. You have no historical context about the city in which you live. I'm not talking about around the world, I'm talking about the history in your own back yard. I'm just saying you are refusing to look at the full picture. If a person is treated or viewed a certain way because of their race, yet nobody talks about race, how does the problem get resolved? Just assume its in their imaginations?
If race wasn't an issue back then, then why did Jim Crow even exist? It had no affect at all? On anyone? Why were so many southerners upset when blacks got the right to vote in 1968? Nobody is asking you or anybody for anything. You are always assuming someone wants a hand out. You asked why black people are disproportionately behind others in certain categories. I (and several others) told you a few reasons, and you are trying to make it seem like we're racist for saying it. Civil Rights is about treating people equally, yet when people talk about the ways people are/were treated unequally, it's suddenly not relevant.
People say the same exact statement in bold about racist white people. Look at the facts. Look at the real historical precedents. I didn't say Blacks and Latinos had it bad in my post. I asked you ”Are you saying that a racist person would view an Asian or Indian person they same as a Black or Latino person?” A question you seemingly cannot answer. Why? Perhaps the answer is a difficult one. Yet, as you said, blacks still continue to overcome this. But is ignoring the past/recent history the answer?
When did chattel slavery in the African countries you referred to start? Was it before colonization? How do you know? What happened to all the people who fought tooth and nail to keep chattel slavery in America? Why was it so hard to end it? Why were laws implemented in the south to keep blacks in servitude for an additional 100 years after that? Did it work? How did it stop? These are the questions that you conveniently glaze over. Is it because you don't know, or because you do not want to know?
Slavery in Africa was going on long before the white man ever showed up. White people didn't invent slavery. Africans were catching other Africans and enslaving them and also selling them to people from around the world not just to white people. White people also didn't invent racism. Its hard to discus this with someone who doesn't know actual history maybe it is because of all the books you have read that are fantasy and opinion instead of actual facts and history? Black people in the south got to vote as part of the 1965 Voting Rights Act not 1968. Again, you don't even know what you are talking about. Sadly it sounds like you have been indoctrinated and brain washed by these 'books' you have been reading. See why I won't pay them any attention? I'm starting to pity you to be honest.
Slavery in Africa was going on long before the white man ever showed up. White people didn't invent slavery. Africans were catching other Africans and enslaving them and also selling them to people from around the world not just to white people. White people also didn't invent racism. Its hard to discus this with someone who doesn't know actual history maybe it is because of all the books you have read that are fantasy and opinion instead of actual facts and history? Black people in the south got to vote as part of the 1965 Voting Rights Act not 1968. Again, you don't even know what you are talking about. Sadly it sounds like you have been indoctrinated and brain washed by these 'books' you have been reading. See why I won't pay them any attention? I'm starting to pity you to be honest.
Slavery in Africa or anywhere else was not nearly as barbaric as the transcontinental slave trade. Have you looked into the differences?
When did racism in the modern era (based on the current definition) begin? I mean classifying others on the basis of skin color. Why was lighter almost always viewed better than darker?
I was actually referring to the Civil Rights Act of 1968, and after the Voting Rights Act passed in 1965, many Black people still were not able to vote. Do you know why that is? -- But I got it. You would rather pick these knits than address any of the questions I mentioned. Why are you still referring to the 1619 Project? I said the books I recommended to you had nothing to do with that. I thought you said that was "stories and opinion". One of the first books I recommended was "Lies My Teacher Told Me" by James Loewen.
And I'm not blaming you or the "white man" for anything. I'm just stating a few of the factual, well documented, obstacles that have stood in the way of Black Americans over the years that may lead to some of the disparities that we see today.
But I see this is going nowhere, so I will stop now to prevent the thread from closing -- but I sincerely hope the mods keep our dialogue in this thread.
BTW, I hold a Ph.D in History. My specialty is American History -- particularly in the south. My personal interest is local/Atlanta history.
Take care
Last edited by equinox63; 02-08-2021 at 04:19 PM..
Slavery in Africa or anywhere else was not nearly as barbaric as the transcontinental slave trade. Have you looked into the differences?
When did racism in the modern era (based on the current definition) begin? I mean classifying others on the basis of skin color. Why was lighter almost always viewed better than darker?
I was actually referring to the Civil Rights Act of 1968, and after the Voting Rights Act passed in 1965, many Black people still were not able to vote. Do you know why that is? -- But I got it. You would rather pick these knits than address any of the questions I mentioned. Why are you still referring to the 1619 Project? I said the books I recommended to you had nothing to do with that. I thought you said that was "stories and opinion". One of the first books I recommended was "Lies My Teacher Told Me" by James Loewen.
And I'm not blaming you or the "white man" for anything. I'm just stating a few of factual, well documented, obstacles that have stood in the way of Black Americans over the years that may lead to some of the disparities that we see today.
But I see this is going nowhere, so I will stop now to prevent the thread from closing -- but I sincerely hope the mods keep our dialogue in this thread.
BTW, I hold a Ph.D in History. My specialty is American History -- particularly in the south. My personal interest is local/Atlanta history.
Take care
I’m not interested in revisionist history. You keep trying to move the goalposts. Africans and Arabs colluded in the slave trade and perfected it. Long before the white man ever showed up. Which is why chattel slavery still exists in those very regions today in 2021 and it doesn’t exist in the United States. You don’t think that is some coincidence do you? It’s not. There isn’t a group in America that wasn’t oppressed at some point in time in world history. Some groups have been able to move past it and others haven’t and therein lies the problem. Just like the problem of people who supposedly have PHD’s in History are participating in revisionist history and relying on books, essays, etc that are more fantasy, opinions, and feelings than actual historical fact.
Last edited by ronricks; 02-08-2021 at 04:56 PM..
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