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Alas, but only YOUR opinion. This is America, that flag is protected under the first Ammendment, banning it would be the most un-American thing to do. But, since I have wrangled with the traitor's/treason allegation dozens of times, I will tell you now that it was not treason.
I agree with you that the flag is protected by the 1st amendment. Nazis, Skinheads, KKK, and the like have marched and spewed hate for years while being protected by the courts and the Constitution. That doesn't make them or their symbols of hate any less vile.
I agree with you that the flag is protected by the 1st amendment. Nazis, Skinheads, KKK, and the like have marched and spewed hate for years while being protected by the courts and the Constitution. That doesn't make them or their symbols of hate any less vile.
US law states that "[W]hoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason." Since the United States never considered the Confederacy as a legitimate government, all Southern states remained American in their eyes. Therefore, Confederates who fought in the Civil War against the United States could be considered to have committed treason. (However, as is mentioned here, amnesty was given to pretty much all of them.)
Put simply, the Confederate flag is, by definition, anti-American. Call it Southern pride, call it heritage, whatever. Just don't call it American, because it most certainly is not that.
But since secession was never addressed in the Constitution or in law before 1870, thusly not illegal before 1870. Made the Southern seperation legit, and since the Lincoln White House refused to see Confederate delegates in the months before Fort Sumter. And since nobody was ever officially hanged on charges of treason, it wasn't treason.
But since many Confederate leaders invoked the names of many of the Founding Fathers, they saw themselves as the "Second American Revolution", but fighting for your beliefs and invoking the core beliefs of the Founding Fathers can't be more American. But Southern, definately!
[LEFT]On 25 February 1861, Davis and Toombs dispatched A.B. Roman, Martin J. Crawford, and John Forsyth to Washington to negotiate a peaceful separation and the evacuation of all federal property in the Confederacy. Two days later, Toombs sent William Lowndes Yancey, Pierre A. Rost, and Ambrose Dudley Mann to Europe to secure de jure recognition of the Confederate States of America and treaties of amity and commerce. No thought was given to establishing permanent missions in Washington or any European capital. Not surprisingly, Roman, Forsyth, and Crawford—who arrived in Washington in early March—had no success there. Seward refused to meet with the commissioners or to arrange a meeting with Lincoln, which they had requested. Unwilling, however, to antagonize the agents, Seward maintained contact through a third party. He assured the Confederates that the Union would not attempt to coerce the seceded states into returning to the Union and still hoped that a peaceful reunion was possible. On 8 April, after a month of waiting impatiently and distrusting Seward's assurance of Lincoln's commitment to the maintenance of peace, Crawford informed Davis of rumors that Lincoln was committed to war. A few days later the three Confederates returned home.
I agree with you that the flag is protected by the 1st amendment. Nazis, Skinheads, KKK, and the like have marched and spewed hate for years while being protected by the courts and the Constitution. That doesn't make them or their symbols of hate any less vile.
I see we agree about the Constitution, but I think that the Confederate flag has no universal meaning, it's meaning is objective to whoever views it. That's why for me and others it represents Southern Pride, Heritage and Sacrifice. While for others it means the opposite.
But since secession was never addressed in the Constitution or in law before 1870, thusly not illegal before 1870. Made the Southern seperation legit, and since the Lincoln White House refused to see Confederate delegates in the months before Fort Sumter. And since nobody was ever officially hanged on charges of treason, it wasn't treason.
You know, it might help you to actually read this thing called the Constitution. From Article 3, Section 3: "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort." Levying war against the United States, hmm, didn't something like that happen between the year 1861 and 1865? Oh, and for your information, just because a person is pardoned of a crime doesn't mean they didn't commit the act. Logical fallacy, that.
I repeat, the United States of America has never recognized the Confederacy as a legitimate government. That's why the US flags during the Civil War included a star for every state in the Union, including Confederate States.
Quote:
But since many Confederate leaders invoked the names of many of the Founding Fathers, they saw themselves as the "Second American Revolution", but fighting for your beliefs and invoking the core beliefs of the Founding Fathers can't be more American. But Southern, definately!
Please tell me that was sarcasm. The Confederacy was anti-American by definition. They were a bastard child, as American as the Taliban is!
Quote:
[LEFT]On 25 February 1861, Davis and Toombs dispatched A.B. Roman, Martin J. Crawford, and John Forsyth to Washington to negotiate a peaceful separation and the evacuation of all federal property in the Confederacy. Two days later, Toombs sent William Lowndes Yancey, Pierre A. Rost, and Ambrose Dudley Mann to Europe to secure de jure recognition of the Confederate States of America and treaties of amity and commerce. No thought was given to establishing permanent missions in Washington or any European capital. Not surprisingly, Roman, Forsyth, and Crawford—who arrived in Washington in early March—had no success there. Seward refused to meet with the commissioners or to arrange a meeting with Lincoln, which they had requested. Unwilling, however, to antagonize the agents, Seward maintained contact through a third party. He assured the Confederates that the Union would not attempt to coerce the seceded states into returning to the Union and still hoped that a peaceful reunion was possible. On 8 April, after a month of waiting impatiently and distrusting Seward's assurance of Lincoln's commitment to the maintenance of peace, Crawford informed Davis of rumors that Lincoln was committed to war. A few days later the three Confederates returned home.
You know, it might help you to actually read this thing called the Constitution. From Article 3, Section 3: "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort." Levying war against the United States, hmm, didn't something like that happen between the year 1861 and 1865? Oh, and for your information, just because a person is pardoned of a crime doesn't mean they didn't commit the act. Logical fallacy, that.
I repeat, the United States of America has never recognized the Confederacy as a legitimate government. That's why the US flags during the Civil War included a star for every state in the Union, including Confederate States.
Please tell me that was sarcasm. The Confederacy was anti-American by definition. They were a bastard child, as American as the Taliban is!
OK...
But the intention was not to levy war against the U.S., the Confederacy had originally wanted to seperate peacefully and pay for any forts or territory taken, Washington would not let it happen, even though secession was not illegal, that is why the Upper South seceded shortly after, they saw the North as the aggressor. So D.C. was in the wrong here. And no it isn't sarcasm, the likes of Lee and Davis invoked Jefferson, Washington, etc. Because they did see themselves as the sons of the Revolution. But since the Taliban doesn't invoke Thomas Jefferson, and since Confederates never made a sport out of suicide bombing, I guess your arguement is wrong.
As much as I truly do not want to touch this thread with a 10 foot pole, I'm going to dive in. I will not however discuss the rights and wrongs of owning and displaying the confederate flag. Unfortunately, it was/has been adopted by various groups that do not know the history behind it, or really care to. My father owns several original confederate flags dating from the 1860s. However, he is a huge history and genealogy buff. He is anything but a 'bubba' or redneck, however, he is a proud Southern man, with a lineage that is deeply rooted in the great state of Georgia.
Whatever bastardization the confederate flag has suffered in this century, it was never meant to represent that. In fact, the flag that is most often displayed was never a flag for the confederacy, and is not one of the ones my father owns. True confederate flags are kept and displayed by those who want to remember this history of our home. The civil war had very little to do with slavery. The vast majority of white people in the country did not own slaves. Only around 10% of people in the south owned slaves. Also, there were states that joined the confederacy that did not allow slaves, and there were states that remained with the Union that did allow slavery. It was most definitely a contributing factor, however the biggest reason was the fight over states rights. More importantly, that some in the North wanted even higher tariffs on imported goods that the South relied on. As most know, the North was much more industrialized, and viewed this importation that the more agrarian South relied on as competition.
I completely understand why some would view the display of such a flag as offensive. Sometimes, it is unfortunately meant that way. What we all do need to remember, is that generalizations are always harmful, on both sides. There are many of us that are proud of our ancestors who died for what the believed in, and have no ill will towards any group.
Please don't take the hate of a few as the voice of a people.
But the intention was not to levy war against the U.S., the Confederacy had originally wanted to seperate peacefully and pay for any forts or territory taken, Washington would not let it happen, even though secession was not illegal, that is why the Upper South seceded shortly after, they saw the North as the aggressor. So D.C. was in the wrong here. And no it isn't sarcasm, the likes of Lee and Davis invoked Jefferson, Washington, etc. Because they did see themselves as the sons of the Revolution. But since the Taliban doesn't invoke Thomas Jefferson, and since Confederates never made a sport out of suicide bombing, I guess your arguement is wrong.
The United States was wrong, and their sworn enemy--the Confederacy--was right? Wow, what amazing things we learn around here! There may have been several contributing causes to the Civil War, but the common fuel to all these fires was, without question, slavery. Slavery was THE common social issue in not just the years, but even the decades, prior to the Civil War. Also, even though only a few Southerners owned slaves, the overwhelming majority of Southern whites defended "that peculiar institution."
Furthermore, it was the Southern states' decision to secede. They had plenty of opportunity to get with the times, wean off of slavery, and develop a more modern economy (sound familiar?). Or at the very least they could have shown a little more give-and-take with the Northeast and Midwest. But no no no, they erected their own illegitimate government and fought a war, a war against the United States. That's what the Confederate flag means to me, Desert kid, desertion from and treason against the United States of America.
I'm very sorry, but your views of this portion of American history are highly distorted and in need of serious correction.
As much as I truly do not want to touch this thread with a 10 foot pole, I'm going to dive in. I will not however discuss the rights and wrongs of owning and displaying the confederate flag. Unfortunately, it was/has been adopted by various groups that do not know the history behind it, or really care to. My father owns several original confederate flags dating from the 1860s. However, he is a huge history and genealogy buff. He is anything but a 'bubba' or redneck, however, he is a proud Southern man, with a lineage that is deeply rooted in the great state of Georgia.
Whatever bastardization the confederate flag has suffered in this century, it was never meant to represent that. In fact, the flag that is most often displayed was never a flag for the confederacy, and is not one of the ones my father owns. True confederate flags are kept and displayed by those who want to remember this history of our home. The civil war had very little to do with slavery. The vast majority of white people in the country did not own slaves. Only around 10% of people in the south owned slaves. Also, there were states that joined the confederacy that did not allow slaves, and there were states that remained with the Union that did allow slavery. It was most definitely a contributing factor, however the biggest reason was the fight over states rights. More importantly, that some in the North wanted even higher tariffs on imported goods that the South relied on. As most know, the North was much more industrialized, and viewed this importation that the more agrarian South relied on as competition.
I completely understand why some would view the display of such a flag as offensive. Sometimes, it is unfortunately meant that way. What we all do need to remember, is that generalizations are always harmful, on both sides. There are many of us that are proud of our ancestors who died for what the believed in, and have no ill will towards any group.
Please don't take the hate of a few as the voice of a people.
Dude...you're way to smart and have too much of a historical understanding for this thread....follow the money.....tariffs baby. General Grant's family owned a slave after the war was over...but the war was about "slavery".....LOL
I agree with you that the flag is protected by the 1st amendment. Nazis, Skinheads, KKK, and the like have marched and spewed hate for years while being protected by the courts and the Constitution. That doesn't make them or their symbols of hate any less vile.
Neil you mention NAZIS but I beg to differ on that, Hitler and Nazi Germany forbid the Confederate flag, why, because it represented State Rights!
As for the COURTS PROTECTING HATE, why shouldn't they? T hey protect murderes', child rapists, pedophiles, ***** rights, and everything that degrades the HUMAN RACE...hell they even protect BP who is killing millions of us every second...MONEY TALKS AND BULL-**** WALKS!
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There may have been several contributing causes to the Civil War, but the common fuel to all these fires was, without question, slavery. Slavery was THE common social issue in not just the years, but even the decades, prior to the Civil War. Also, even though only a few Southerners owned slaves, the overwhelming majority of Southern whites defended "that peculiar institution."
