HOA wants to charge an up-front fee of over $400 before they will release the HOA docs (West: condo, mortgage)
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Is there a question there or just more preening? I see 3 straw man premises and 3 dares to disagree with them.
So you don't address any of the issues.
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Originally Posted by Bo
Just like you ignored my statement about there being some legwork involved, so no one should expect the management company to assemble documents for free. At a closing, it seems like everyone involved in the transaction gets a fee. The HOA is a party to the transaction, so why shouldn't it get a fee?
What management company do you work for? The management company is ALREADY being paid. The only information unique to the owners is the address and what amounts are allegedly due. The HOA is already paying the management company for bookkeeping services - and the homeowners are paying the HOA for that. So why should the owners be paying AGAIN for the "services" the management company has already been paid for. What legitimate business claims entitlement to hundreds of dollars simply for stating an amount allegedly owed?
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Originally Posted by Bo
I'm not sure how an HOA board could shop around for management to avoid those fees. When you sign up with a management company, you agree to its menu of fees. Having led a board that changed management companies recently, I do know of what I speak.
The people being charged those fees did not agree to them. What you are saying is that you believe it was okay for you to enable a management company to charge the homeowners for services the HOA already paid the management company for. If you were a competent board member you would realize that you can negotiate fees - and you should also realize that you have no business and no authorization to agree that homeowners (who aren't party to your agreement) have to pay some fee to the management company. If the HOA corporation wants to approve fees in a contract it can approve the fees IT is willing to pay. The management company represents the HOA corporation, not the homeowners. Your position illustrates, however, why HOAs preserve value for the VENDORS and not the homeowners.
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Originally Posted by Bo
Being vehemently anti-HOA, you'd probably prefer the HOA board just fire the management company, go into hibernation and let the corporation die, but that's the opposite of good steward ship and a recipe for personal liability for the board members. If there's no management company paying the board liability policy, those hibernating board members are going to be facing a serious smackdown in the courts!
Why don't you try to find the last time HOA board members were held personally liable for anything? Find a case. Only the HOA corporation can pursue the board members for breach of fiduciary duty - so there's no likelihood that a board is going to cause the HOA corporation to sue the board members is there? How much do you overpay in premiums to protect yourself against the homeowners you are preying on? You don't need a management company to write a check and you certainly don't need to agree to include the management company as a named insured nor to provide indemnification to the management company. Let it get its own coverage. Real professionals aren't permitted to contract with clients in such a fashion. But then HOA management companies aren't composed of professionals to begin with unless you include professional embezzlers and swindlers in the list.
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Originally Posted by Bo
I just don't pay my assessment late. Ever.
Sure. Of course other involuntary members can't even verify whether you actually pay at all. But you're special right? Because you should be able to look at the financial records for others while they shouldn't be able to look at yours or verify your claims. I'm sure you allow members to obtain HOA records on your payment history, right?
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Originally Posted by Bo
And I recommend that all members of an HOA do the same. If a homeowner can't afford those fees, that homeowner can't afford to live in an HOA neighborhood and should move out of one, rather than not pay. Not paying is not a good option. It will bite you in the wallet.
So much for HOAs "preserving value" for the homeowners. The agreement you approved of with the management company undoubtedly authorizes the management company to impose late fees for not collecting - and should the management company ever collect any fees the management company gets paid the late fees as a windfall. Brilliant business acumen illustrated by HOA board members.
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Originally Posted by Bo
An HOA is like a cooperative. Co-op members pay into the cooperative, so that it can do whatever it's supposed to do. When co-op members stop paying, they affect the organization's ability to do what it was chartered to do. Texas was never big in the cooperatives movement, so this concept is foreign to some Texans. Cooperatives aren't for everyone and HOAs aren't either. I get that.
Well you really don't get it. Co-ops and HOAs are the same at all - as evidenced by your distinction between the two and your assertion that Texas was never big in the "cooperatives movement." Your suggestion that people find non-HOA property is laughable. San Antonio has been imposing involuntary membership HOAs as part of the platting process for decades - and developers would impose them anyway. They are liability and control shifting vehicles that benefit the developer, local government, and the vendors - not the homeowners. Whatever purpose you believe your organization has it shouldn't be to siphon money from the homeowners to benefit the vendors such as the management companies.
It turns out the seller is responsible for anything beyond $100, but it also means when I am selling the home, I will be the one to pay the extra bucks.
I am buying the property. It is an HOA. The information you are providing below is very helpful. So, There is no regulation on the price charged...
It should be charged by the management company. I was surprised because the HOA monthly fee is about $40, and it is hard to imagine where the $400+ comes from.
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Originally Posted by IC_deLight
Are you buying or selling the property?
Is this an HOA or is this a condominium corporation?
If you are the seller and this is the first "bad" thing you have experienced, count yourself lucky.
If you are a prospective purchaser, you need to do a bit more research before purchasing condo or HOA property.
The laws governing disclosures for HOA/condo resales are distinct.
Regardless of whether the seller or purchaser requested it, the title company is going to want statements concerning amounts allegedly owed because the title company is insuring against the possibility of existing amounts owed. The resale certificate acts as an estoppel certificate to bar claims that exist but are not identified in the resale certificate. That's one reason the title company wants the certificate. The disgusting part is that a third party is demanding $400+ for a statement as to amounts owed to the involuntary membership corporation. You would think the amount should be $0 and if it fails to timely provide the information when requested that it should be barred from being able to make a demand later for the amounts it failed/refused to disclose. There is no regulation on the price charged - and the HOA/condo corporation has given the management company or other third party authority to charge whatever it wants.
Regulation of the rent-seeking HOA/condo vendors has been a difficult legislative effort. First, for many years you had a Texas senator that claimed to be representing homeowners' interest but in reality was representing his own business interests. His ownership interests in HOA/condo vendors was not known to the general public and he wreaked considerable havoc on homeowners with his self-serving legislation. See, https://www.texastribune.org/2013/05...n-john-carona/
Second, the vendors are organized and lobby heavily at the Capitol every session. They work hard to leave homeowners as "soft targets" for the benefit of the HOA/condo vendors. If you are getting rid of condo property, congratulations if this is the worst you are aware of. If you are purchasing condo property, get ready for more to come.
Regulation of the rent-seeking HOA/condo vendors has been a difficult legislative effort. First, for many years you had a Texas senator that claimed to be representing homeowners' interest but in reality was representing his own business interests. His ownership interests in HOA/condo vendors was not known to the general public and he wreaked considerable havoc on homeowners with his self-serving legislation. See, https://www.texastribune.org/2013/05...n-john-carona/
Never know this part, but it is a good article to explain how the HOA works and how the HOA here is different from other parts of the states
The resale certificate is usually paid by the seller. The HOA addendum gives the option, but why would a buyer agree to pay something that the seller could use for another buyer if you backed out of the contract. That's why sellers pay because the resale cert is good for 90 days. What you might be thinking that you are responsible for $100 is the transfer fee. The addendum states the buyer will pay "up to $X" and you get to negotiate a number.
Resale certificate and transfer fees are separate items and addressed separately in the addendum.
Talk to your management company. These doc prep fees came out of the woodwork at every sale of a property with HOA for us. I have to pull records but 2015 was in the 400-500 range. Had me fuming.
So consider the inflation, 400-500 in 2016 is pretty reasonable now....
I am the buyer, so am dealing with the title company now. The good thing for now is also that I am the buyer, since the contract has a line saying the seller pays for anything beyond 100, but I am still curious about the $400+ HOA docs fee. It seems the HOA or the management company uses CondoCerts to collect the fees before they can provide any document to the title company. It is a single family home. We have communicated to the Title company what the contract says, since they are in between the HOAs and us, and we don't communicate to the HOA directly.
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Originally Posted by cully
To clarify, when I said doesn't look like Texas laws say exactly what the max charge will be for this packet....Texas laws do say there can be a charge to assemble, copy and deliver the large number of items in such a packet. But Texas laws don't state a max amount allowed.
It is concerning, graygray, that you speak of "so called" HOA docs. And that you ask what is the HOA docs resale package or cost for. I can't tell for sure if you are the buyer or seller. In states I'm familiar with the seller, who is the owner, generally is expected to provide and pay for up-to-date documents which can be a sizable package including all the most recent financials, covenants, restrictions, bylaws, any lawsuits against them, etc. However, sometimes the seller's or buyer's realtor will pay or the buyer will pay and that is acceptable in states I'm familiar with.
But I get the feeling you're not familiar with HOAs, so you may be the buyer. If so, you need to educate yourself on all the issues involved, not just in obtaining your documents before settlement, but actually in the docs. You need to be concerned about reading them.
I don't like the big brother thing....the homeowners who have a board, can be fine. Then the board hires a manager who does or doesn't live in the community, can be okay. But then another layer of protection, a dispassionate company to manage the resale package for the manager...for me, depends on the size of the association. An entire city as an Association like Reston, Va... understandable. But for most, personally don't like it.
For one thing, there's the extra charge whether personally or as part of your monthly dues. For another, the lack of connection that I have heard of from some people where there's a problem that has to be worked out between the buyer, the seller, the board, the manager, and the package keeper with no true concern and lots of paperwork back and forth till it's past closing time.
About CondoCerts. As with most things, one pays for every layer added. So you pay for CondoCerts. Here's what they do: "CondoCerts provides reliable, round-the-clock online access to all HOA governing documents and critical project data for lenders, mortgage bankers, escrow officers, title companies, real estate agents and homeowners in need of information from MGM’s managed communities."
"CondoCerts... delivers the required documents and other requested data. CondoCerts has become the de facto standard for disseminating documents/data to meet the timely needs of the real estate community...lenders, title and escrow companies and real estate agents have signed up and are using CondoCerts nationwide today. "
How big is the association you're talking about? And is it an HOA of single family homes or is it a condo of single family/townhouses/apts?
I think $400 is a tad high, but the charge is normal and I always factor it into my buyers' closing costs unless we negotiated a different outcome in the contract. As a former HOA board member, I believe most of the charge is passed along to the HOA.
So you are on the seller agent side I just read online that it is one of the reason why one needs an agent to defend you. It seems the HOA sets the amount they want to charge. It is a fairly new property, little over a year.
NONE of the charge is passed through to the HOA corporation. Instead the HOA corporation authorizes the managing agent or the vendor to charge the homeowner directly, off-the-books of the HOA corporation. You have clueless or corrupt homeowners on the board "negotiating" with a sophisticated management company which is often aided by the HOA attorney. The HOA attorney and managing agent often belong to the same trade group. The HOA and its involuntary members are there for the fleecing by these vendors. A "charge" for a statement of amounts allegedly owed is hardly "normal" for any business. It's nothing but rent-seeking by HOA vendors who will leverage great loss to the homeowner in order to extract these junk fees. The HOA boards either cluelessly or intentionally aid these vendors in ripping off the involuntary members of the HOA corporation.
So homeowners in the HOA work with the management company to rip off the other homeowners intentionally or unintentionally?
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I just read online that it is one of the reason why one needs an agent to defend you. It seems the HOA sets the amount they want to charge. It is a fairly new property, little over a year.
