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Sydney is one of the worlds greatest cities, but it is also one of the worlds most expensive cities. Consider the Central Coast, in-between Newcastle and Sydney. It's rather cheap and about an hour and 15 minutes commute by train from Sydney. Good option if you want to be in Sydney but can't afford it. Though Newcastle is some what larger and has better options for education.
Also have you considered south east Queensland and Brisbane? Cheaper than Melbourne and Sydney, and a quality city.
Thanks…yes, SE Queensland is high on our list…especially the Sunshine and Gold Coast areas.
I take it then that Newcastle is not as ideal as perhaps north of it along the central coast…in terms of affordability/cost of living. Am I right?
Newcastle is a nice city of nearly 300 000 people. The only thing wrong with living there is the distance and hellish commute time to Sydney, 2 and a half hours! Though there are plenty of jobs in Newcastle, but it's an industrial city, and most professional jobs are in Sydney.
That's why I'd suggest the the Central Coast over Newcastle, a more reasonable distance to Sydney. Central Coast, is in the middle of New South Wales, not the middle of the east coast. And is half way between Newcastle and Sydney.
If I couldn't afford Sydney, rather than Newcastle I'd probably go with south east Queensland, great cities and beaches. It also tends to be Sydney's Florida, lot of people from Sydney head up to Queensland to retire, for the sun and lower cost of living.
I moved from Sydney to a country town (far north coast of NSW) nearly 6 years ago - and from a cost of living point of view, the main difference I've found is in the price of houses. My house is worth probably $350,000 on a good day, whereas the same house in an averagely-nice mid-distance suburb of Sydney would probably be worth close to $800,000.
The council rates (property taxes) are much the same here as they were in Sydney, as is the cost of food (some things cheaper because they're locally grown, other things more expensive due to greater transport costs). Entertainment costs seem to be about the same too - although I don't spend as much as I used to in Sydney because there's less availability and choice. I'm not sure if petrol is cheaper or more expensive here than in Sydney, but none of my friends who've driven up to visit have made any comments about it - I doubt there's much in it.
My car insurance is about $200 cheaper here than in Sydney, but my home insurance is about $200 more than it was in Sydney even though I am insuring less.
So, OP, unless I'm missing something, I think your main consideration when determining cost of living is in the price of real estate. Everything else, on balance, will be much the same, whether you live in a city or in a regional area.
Newcastle is a nice city of nearly 300 000 people. The only thing wrong with living there is the distance and hellish commute time to Sydney, 2 and a half hours! Though there are plenty of jobs in Newcastle, but it's an industrial city, and most professional jobs are in Sydney.
That's why I'd suggest the the Central Coast over Newcastle, a more reasonable distance to Sydney. Central Coast, is in the middle of New South Wales, not the middle of the east coast. And is half way between Newcastle and Sydney.
If I couldn't afford Sydney, rather than Newcastle I'd probably go with south east Queensland, great cities and beaches. It also tends to be Sydney's Florida, lot of people from Sydney head up to Queensland to retire, for the sun and lower cost of living.
Try nearly 1/2 million with Lake Macquarie council, which is contiguous with Newcastle City LGA, and well over 1/2 million with other surrounding suburbs:
Thanks for the reminder. I have not forgotten about the Southern Highlands/Wollongong/Southcoast area that you pointed out. It simply slipped my mind to list it in that last post. It is still on our radar, and we will visit it before making any decisions.
The Newcastle area has come to our attention lately as a relatively newer discovery in terms of an option, thus has peaked our interest and our desire to learn more about it. Aside from the recommendation of my friend currently living in Canberra, I have also noticed it is rated as a 2011 top 10 city to live by Lonely Planet magazine (and the ONLY place in Oz to break that list).
Are you saying that it shares the same expensive cost of living as Sydney? We are just now cracking the shell of the egg of discovery with regard to Newcastle.
Newcastle is nice enough and certainly will have a lower cost of living than Sydney. I don't think you could pay me enough to commute to Sydney from Newcastle though. The F3 (highway between Sydney and Newcastle) has shockingly bad traffic. Having said that, if you're intention is to live and work in Newcastle then no problem and more opportunities there than in the Southern Highlands.
Newcastle is nice enough and certainly will have a lower cost of living than Sydney. I don't think you could pay me enough to commute to Sydney from Newcastle though. The F3 (highway between Sydney and Newcastle) has shockingly bad traffic. Having said that, if you're intention is to live and work in Newcastle then no problem and more opportunities there than in the Southern Highlands.
Good to know info…thanks! Are you as familiar with the traffic flow between the Sunshine and/or Gold Coast to and from Brisbane? I do recognize that it's not as lengthy, so I'd be most interested to hear about the traffic congestion and flow.
My family and I have been debating the move from the mainland US to either Hawaii, New Zealand, or Australia. This has been a fairly interesting read, but definitely seems to have taking a turn away from New Zealand and has pretty much honed in its focus on Australia. Was there a reason that New Zealand fell to the wayside? Did I miss a post somewhere? I don't have any insightful information to share, just wanted to thank the OP and the people responding for 25 pages of mostly informative reading.
We are in the middle of moving from New Zealand to the US, so it's been very interesting to read what everyone has written. I've been using the site to get information on schools etc here, but actually registered so I too could post a reply to your question.
I am a New Zealander who lived in Sthn CA for 12 years before returning to live in NZ for the last 8 years. My husband is an American and our two sons who are 9 and 5 are blessed to have dual citizenship. I am 48 and my husband is 44. Our plan is to try to have a foothold in both countries as we love both places although for different reasons.
Our primary reasons for living in New Zealand were to be close to my family and to raise our children there for a while. While we were committed to being there for the medium term, we also went with the thought in the back of our minds that it was quite possible that we would return to the the States at some point. We are returning with the thought that we will end up back in NZ at some point. Both places now feel like home to us.
Our primary reasons for returning to the States are to spend time with my husband's family and to earn seriously more money. With very few exceptions, everything you have read about lower salaries in New Zealand is pretty much true.
As an example, my husband is a senior mechanical engineer. His most recent salary in NZ was $NZ125,000 and he was considered by others in the industry to be very well paid. His salary here is $US200,000 and likely to rise fairly quickly. Given our ages, we needed that opportunity to really add to our savings before retirement, and it wasn't going to happen in NZ as it is just too small a market.
Business owners can earn decent money, but they also work very hard for it too with considerably more risk than a salaried person.
It can also be a fairly expensive place to live, although that depends on where you end up and whether you rent or buy. Auckland (at least anywhere within 30 minutes commute of the inner city) has house prices that rival those of similar areas in Los Angeles, the Bay area, or Sydney.
We rented for a long time because we would have had to pay $750,000 and up for a small and/or unrenovated house on a section that wasn't the size of a postage stamp (600sqm and up), and that wasn't something we could do on one income (we wanted one of us to be at home while our children were preschool age). We paid $2700 a month to rent a decent three bedroom house in a safe area with good schools 10 minutes drive from downtown Auckland.
If you are outside of Auckland, house prices are considerably less, although Wellington is still pricey, as are Nelson, Queenstown and the Bay of Islands (although less so). If I were doing it again, I would rent in the city and buy some land within 1.5 hours as coastal land prices have dropped considerably and are still falling in many areas.
Interest rates are also high there compared to the States, even though they are at historical lows. Our mortgage is 100% floating at 5.25%, and that's the lowest that rates have been in my adult lifetime. You cannot get a fixed rate for longer than a five year term and those rates are about 7.25% at the moment (no 30 yr fixed rates like here). We will probably sell in order to buy something here, but still going through that decision-making process.
Electricity is also expensive in NZ as is gas, but generally people travel nothing like the distances they do here, so to me that isn't such a big issue. And really, at the risk of bringing a whole heap of hurt down on my head, gas prices here are still way too cheap given that it's a dwindling finite resource with a horrible impact on our environment...
Food is not cheap either, but in general the quality is excellent, especially for fresh fruits and vegetables, dairy products, meat and seafood. You can easily find fine dining in Auckland and Wellington that is equal to what you'd find in LA or SF, and I actually think casual cafe-style food in Auckland and in many other parts of the country (certainly Wellington or Christchurch) is generally more interesting with more variety and better quality than most of what I find here in LA. Lots of good Asian food, but pretty light on the ground for Mexican food. And yes, hospitality service does leave a lot to be desired in many places, but it has also improved rapidly in the last 5-10 years.
Consumer goods are also generally quite a lot more expensive in New Zealand, although not always. There have been things that I've bought in the States only to return to NZ to find the exact item cheaper and in NZ dollars. But whiteware, shoes, cosmetics, clothing, toys, virtually all a lot cheaper in the US.
You don't need health insurance in NZ, but more people are getting it to avoid public waiting lists. We paid about $60 a month for our family with the rest subsidised by the employer. Here we are paying about $350-400 a month (including dental which we didn't have in NZ), and I believe that is about 15% of the total cost. When we were here last time, our health insurance was fully picked up by the employer, so that has definitely been quite a shock to the system.
We also are paying more tax here than in NZ where it is 30% top rate. And there is no capital gains tax (which has a lot to do with the high property prices but that needs a whole other post).
But money certainly isn't everything, and if you have the means to buy a house outright or close to it, it changes everything fairly significantly. You are also in the very lucky position of not having to pay for international travel and that also makes a huge difference as it mitigates somewhat the isolation factor, you can visit family cheaply and, if you end up in NZ, escape the winter for a vacation. Winters there aren't that bad, they can just seem interminably wet...If you can go somewhere warm and dry for a week or so, even if it's just the Gold Coast, it makes all the difference.
If you do move and need to transfer money, be aware that there is quite a lot of volatility in the exchange rate with the NZ dollar which can make a big dent in your savings. For example in the last 12 months, the US dollar bought as little as $1.13 and as high as $1.35, which gets significant when you are transferring thousands. Consider making monthly transfers so that you get a dollar cost averaging kind of effect, unless you are lucky enough to be ready to transfer when it's an exceptionally great rate.
Despite your age, I'd be surprised if you didn't qualify for permanent residence in your own right because of your occupation. New Zealand also has quite a strong aviation services sector, with a Pratt and Whitney service hub in Christchurch and pilot training companies in a number of places serving the growing Asian market.
You don't say how old your kids are, other than very young, so I'm picking somewhere between 2 and 10. NZers gripe about education and standards and certainly there are some poorly performing schools, but by and large I think public education is of a very high standard with very high literacy levels. There are issues with some intermediate schools (middle schools here), but I am starting to think that that has more to do with the age group than the system, as it is the same here in LA. Lots of schools struggle with bullying issues too, but again that is not particular to NZ.
Despite changes since I was a kid, I think NZ city kids generally have more freedom than kids in US cities. There is not as much helicopter parenting and parents seem to be a bit more relaxed about the little things - getting dirty, going barefoot, making noise, taking some calculated (and not so calculated) risks, going outside to play. Sports and outdoor activities are still a big part of the NZ lifestyle, especially for kids.
Education is seen as important, but there's generally not as much pressure to achieve as here in the States (which can be both a good thing and a bad thing). There's room to just be, rather than having to be somebody, if that makes sense. I'm sure that room exists in the US as well, especially outside of the main centres, and ultimately it's down to us as parents to make sure we find that space for our kids, wherever we are. It's just easier to do it in some places than others.
By the way, it is illegal to leave a child under the age of 14 alone at home without adult supervision (so 13 yr old siblings can't babysit) and striking a child (as in smacking) is a crime, giving them the same legal protection from assault as adults. But there is also a serious ongoing issue with child abuse in New Zealand, and, as in the US, the gap between rich and poor in NZ has really widened with particular impact on children.
Alcohol is a very serious issue in NZ, especially with young people. You can legally drink at 18 and binge drinking is a real problem across the board for both adults and teenagers, and sadly it's rapidly growing problem for young women. I'm pretty sure it's a similar issue in Australia. There is a very different societal approach to drinking generally than there is here. Again, as parents you are your child's first and best line of defence.
There is also a hard edge to NZ culture, and I'm sure it's there in Australia too. People in these posts have talked about the tall poppy syndrome (bringing down to size those who are perceived as being too big for their boots) which can keep rampant egos in check, but it can also be crushing and destructive. And there is a tendency to look at the dark side of everything, focusing on what's wrong rather than what's right (much less the case in Australia). The innate optimism in the States was something that I found both refreshing and liberating.
As far as actual areas, I love Auckland and its surrounds - beautiful, generally warm, has the amenities attendant upon a large urban population but very easy access to space and quietness. Wellington I also love (grew up there), but the climate does my head in. Nelson is gorgeous, great climate, lots of artists, writers, fantastic food and wine. Napier is very similar.
Don't know so much about living in Australia, but definitely better off than NZ financially (even with their higher expenses). Sydney is a fantastic city but seems tough to live in with kids. My niece is an early childhood teacher there and she wouldn't recommend it as a place to raise a family. High pressure jobs, terrible traffic, competitive schooling, expensive housing. We had the chance to relocate to Brisbane but turned it down. Humidity, expensive housing, unchecked growth - but maybe I'm doing it a disservice. Hear great things about the Sunshine Coast and Adelaide - never been there myself but haven't met anyone that didn't love either place. Sunshine coast seems to be a bit more laidback than the Gold Coast. Many New Zealanders really feel an affinity with Melbourne as well, so definitely worth a look.
I've gone on for too long, but I would say if you are able to choose a place that allows you to simplify your life and give your kids the chance to combine the opportunities and optimism that is their American heritage while also giving them the groundedness and perhaps broader perspective on the world that would come from growing up in either New Zealand or Australia, then you should go for it. To quote Mark Twain, it's the things we don't do that we regret more than the things we do. Best of luck!
My family and I have been debating the move from the mainland US to either Hawaii, New Zealand, or Australia. This has been a fairly interesting read, but definitely seems to have taking a turn away from New Zealand and has pretty much honed in its focus on Australia. Was there a reason that New Zealand fell to the wayside? Did I miss a post somewhere? I don't have any insightful information to share, just wanted to thank the OP and the people responding for 25 pages of mostly informative reading.
As the OP, I am VERY happy to read that others are now finding this thread useful to them. It hasn't always been easy keeping it on topic (with fending off the few who have tried to derail it), so it's nice to hear that my efforts to do that have paid off. Honestly, I'm a little surprised it has lasted this long. For that, I must give ALL the credit to those "in the know" who have generously taken the time to share what they know on these subject matters.
I agree, this thread has evolved nicely and has a lot of very useful information in it.
Thanks again to all those who have chimed in to help make this so beneficial to us and others!
To answer your question…you're right, this thread has taken a direction more focused on Oz, and that's probably because as it evolved..."we" became more intrigued by the discovery that Oz seemed to offer more than New Zealand in terms of job opportunities and what we desire for our family, more specifically opportunities for our young children as they grow.
However, that is just what we have taken away from what we've learned in this forum…so certainly nothing you should hang your hat on. It's just our subjective opinion. You should know that we have NOT ruled out New Zealand, and still intend to visit it again before we make any final decisions on where to settle.
No decision for us will be made until we see it all first hand again. This forum has been a great source of information in prep for that decision making trip. We've enjoyed sponging it all up!
We are in the middle of moving from New Zealand to the US, so it's been very interesting to read what everyone has written. I've been using the site to get information on schools etc here, but actually registered so I too could post a reply to your question.
I am a New Zealander who lived in Sthn CA for 12 years before returning to live in NZ for the last 8 years. My husband is an American and our two sons who are 9 and 5 are blessed to have dual citizenship. I am 48 and my husband is 44. Our plan is to try to have a foothold in both countries as we love both places although for different reasons.
Our primary reasons for living in New Zealand were to be close to my family and to raise our children there for a while. While we were committed to being there for the medium term, we also went with the thought in the back of our minds that it was quite possible that we would return to the the States at some point. We are returning with the thought that we will end up back in NZ at some point. Both places now feel like home to us.
Our primary reasons for returning to the States are to spend time with my husband's family and to earn seriously more money. With very few exceptions, everything you have read about lower salaries in New Zealand is pretty much true.
As an example, my husband is a senior mechanical engineer. His most recent salary in NZ was $NZ125,000 and he was considered by others in the industry to be very well paid. His salary here is $US200,000 and likely to rise fairly quickly. Given our ages, we needed that opportunity to really add to our savings before retirement, and it wasn't going to happen in NZ as it is just too small a market.
Business owners can earn decent money, but they also work very hard for it too with considerably more risk than a salaried person.
It can also be a fairly expensive place to live, although that depends on where you end up and whether you rent or buy. Auckland (at least anywhere within 30 minutes commute of the inner city) has house prices that rival those of similar areas in Los Angeles, the Bay area, or Sydney.
We rented for a long time because we would have had to pay $750,000 and up for a small and/or unrenovated house on a section that wasn't the size of a postage stamp (600sqm and up), and that wasn't something we could do on one income (we wanted one of us to be at home while our children were preschool age). We paid $2700 a month to rent a decent three bedroom house in a safe area with good schools 10 minutes drive from downtown Auckland.
If you are outside of Auckland, house prices are considerably less, although Wellington is still pricey, as are Nelson, Queenstown and the Bay of Islands (although less so). If I were doing it again, I would rent in the city and buy some land within 1.5 hours as coastal land prices have dropped considerably and are still falling in many areas.
Interest rates are also high there compared to the States, even though they are at historical lows. Our mortgage is 100% floating at 5.25%, and that's the lowest that rates have been in my adult lifetime. You cannot get a fixed rate for longer than a five year term and those rates are about 7.25% at the moment (no 30 yr fixed rates like here). We will probably sell in order to buy something here, but still going through that decision-making process.
Electricity is also expensive in NZ as is gas, but generally people travel nothing like the distances they do here, so to me that isn't such a big issue. And really, at the risk of bringing a whole heap of hurt down on my head, gas prices here are still way too cheap given that it's a dwindling finite resource with a horrible impact on our environment...
Food is not cheap either, but in general the quality is excellent, especially for fresh fruits and vegetables, dairy products, meat and seafood. You can easily find fine dining in Auckland and Wellington that is equal to what you'd find in LA or SF, and I actually think casual cafe-style food in Auckland and in many other parts of the country (certainly Wellington or Christchurch) is generally more interesting with more variety and better quality than most of what I find here in LA. Lots of good Asian food, but pretty light on the ground for Mexican food. And yes, hospitality service does leave a lot to be desired in many places, but it has also improved rapidly in the last 5-10 years.
Consumer goods are also generally quite a lot more expensive in New Zealand, although not always. There have been things that I've bought in the States only to return to NZ to find the exact item cheaper and in NZ dollars. But whiteware, shoes, cosmetics, clothing, toys, virtually all a lot cheaper in the US.
You don't need health insurance in NZ, but more people are getting it to avoid public waiting lists. We paid about $60 a month for our family with the rest subsidised by the employer. Here we are paying about $350-400 a month (including dental which we didn't have in NZ), and I believe that is about 15% of the total cost. When we were here last time, our health insurance was fully picked up by the employer, so that has definitely been quite a shock to the system.
We also are paying more tax here than in NZ where it is 30% top rate. And there is no capital gains tax (which has a lot to do with the high property prices but that needs a whole other post).
But money certainly isn't everything, and if you have the means to buy a house outright or close to it, it changes everything fairly significantly. You are also in the very lucky position of not having to pay for international travel and that also makes a huge difference as it mitigates somewhat the isolation factor, you can visit family cheaply and, if you end up in NZ, escape the winter for a vacation. Winters there aren't that bad, they can just seem interminably wet...If you can go somewhere warm and dry for a week or so, even if it's just the Gold Coast, it makes all the difference.
If you do move and need to transfer money, be aware that there is quite a lot of volatility in the exchange rate with the NZ dollar which can make a big dent in your savings. For example in the last 12 months, the US dollar bought as little as $1.13 and as high as $1.35, which gets significant when you are transferring thousands. Consider making monthly transfers so that you get a dollar cost averaging kind of effect, unless you are lucky enough to be ready to transfer when it's an exceptionally great rate.
Despite your age, I'd be surprised if you didn't qualify for permanent residence in your own right because of your occupation. New Zealand also has quite a strong aviation services sector, with a Pratt and Whitney service hub in Christchurch and pilot training companies in a number of places serving the growing Asian market.
You don't say how old your kids are, other than very young, so I'm picking somewhere between 2 and 10. NZers gripe about education and standards and certainly there are some poorly performing schools, but by and large I think public education is of a very high standard with very high literacy levels. There are issues with some intermediate schools (middle schools here), but I am starting to think that that has more to do with the age group than the system, as it is the same here in LA. Lots of schools struggle with bullying issues too, but again that is not particular to NZ.
Despite changes since I was a kid, I think NZ city kids generally have more freedom than kids in US cities. There is not as much helicopter parenting and parents seem to be a bit more relaxed about the little things - getting dirty, going barefoot, making noise, taking some calculated (and not so calculated) risks, going outside to play. Sports and outdoor activities are still a big part of the NZ lifestyle, especially for kids.
Education is seen as important, but there's generally not as much pressure to achieve as here in the States (which can be both a good thing and a bad thing). There's room to just be, rather than having to be somebody, if that makes sense. I'm sure that room exists in the US as well, especially outside of the main centres, and ultimately it's down to us as parents to make sure we find that space for our kids, wherever we are. It's just easier to do it in some places than others.
By the way, it is illegal to leave a child under the age of 14 alone at home without adult supervision (so 13 yr old siblings can't babysit) and striking a child (as in smacking) is a crime, giving them the same legal protection from assault as adults. But there is also a serious ongoing issue with child abuse in New Zealand, and, as in the US, the gap between rich and poor in NZ has really widened with particular impact on children.
Alcohol is a very serious issue in NZ, especially with young people. You can legally drink at 18 and binge drinking is a real problem across the board for both adults and teenagers, and sadly it's rapidly growing problem for young women. I'm pretty sure it's a similar issue in Australia. There is a very different societal approach to drinking generally than there is here. Again, as parents you are your child's first and best line of defence.
There is also a hard edge to NZ culture, and I'm sure it's there in Australia too. People in these posts have talked about the tall poppy syndrome (bringing down to size those who are perceived as being too big for their boots) which can keep rampant egos in check, but it can also be crushing and destructive. And there is a tendency to look at the dark side of everything, focusing on what's wrong rather than what's right (much less the case in Australia). The innate optimism in the States was something that I found both refreshing and liberating.
As far as actual areas, I love Auckland and its surrounds - beautiful, generally warm, has the amenities attendant upon a large urban population but very easy access to space and quietness. Wellington I also love (grew up there), but the climate does my head in. Nelson is gorgeous, great climate, lots of artists, writers, fantastic food and wine. Napier is very similar.
Don't know so much about living in Australia, but definitely better off than NZ financially (even with their higher expenses). Sydney is a fantastic city but seems tough to live in with kids. My niece is an early childhood teacher there and she wouldn't recommend it as a place to raise a family. High pressure jobs, terrible traffic, competitive schooling, expensive housing. We had the chance to relocate to Brisbane but turned it down. Humidity, expensive housing, unchecked growth - but maybe I'm doing it a disservice. Hear great things about the Sunshine Coast and Adelaide - never been there myself but haven't met anyone that didn't love either place. Sunshine coast seems to be a bit more laidback than the Gold Coast. Many New Zealanders really feel an affinity with Melbourne as well, so definitely worth a look.
I've gone on for too long, but I would say if you are able to choose a place that allows you to simplify your life and give your kids the chance to combine the opportunities and optimism that is their American heritage while also giving them the groundedness and perhaps broader perspective on the world that would come from growing up in either New Zealand or Australia, then you should go for it. To quote Mark Twain, it's the things we don't do that we regret more than the things we do. Best of luck!
Thanks for taking the time to share this with us! That was a GREAT read…very informative. We took a LOT away from it. Simply a fantastic post…and one of the most useful yet!!
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