Buffalo and Cleveland/Through the Looking Glass (Syracuse, Niagara Falls: college, casino)

[bmd69]

Originally Posted by iloveupstateny

out of a list of fortune 500 companies, how can 496 really be anything to cheer about? Dunlop Tires is a small company with stores only in upstate ny and a few around erie, pa. I have looked at that list of companies and have scoured it and most cities get a handful of companies.....our cities upstate, maybe 1, 2, or 3 will be lucky enough to make it.

that is my issue with the area. It seems like the people in WNY just have too much pride or maybe even hope for the area to see ANYTHING that when we do get something like Bass Pro or a few call center jobs---the big picture that ain't all that great is completely forgotten. It is like being hungry and even though you just bought filet mignon and have to drive home and cook it that you dash into a mcdonald's drive-thru for a cheeseburger.......These jobs will pay for some people to make barely there wages. I sometimes wish the people of WNY would stand up and say NO and stop taking the crap that they are getting forced-fed. however, don't ask me how to do that........It seems like the people in other growing cities, even other growing rust belt cities, don't take as much junk as we do in WNY. And further, maybe it isn't even the people----but it is the state governments that actually stand up and say enough is enough. real growth people.
the majority of people who have said NO and we're not gonna take it (go dee snider) actually have had to leave to make the point. So we have this big lack of young people and then the people who have stuck around.....and several of those get excited when low wage jobs come to town and think that the region is on the up and up....................

Small company really! Dunlop Headquarters
Located in Buffalo, New York, Dunlop Tire has been producing quality, innovative, high-performance products for more than 100 years.

[UpstaterInBklyn]

Columbus is the capital and the largest city of the American state of Ohio. Cleveland was at one time.

You are making the classic mistake of comparing cities -- not metropolitan areas. The US Census Bureau organizes all urbanized areas by Metropolitan Statistical Areas (MSAs).

Comparing only the central cities is inaccurate. By that measure, Columbus is also bigger than Boston and Washington DC, but we all know that those metro areas are much larger than Columbus.

The Cleveland-Elyria-Mentor, OH MSA has more than 30,000 more residents than the Columbus MSA.

Official Census Bureau statistics:

Population of the Cleveland-Elyria-Mentor, OH MSA:
July 1, 2006 estimate: 2,114,155 (ranked 24th largest MSA in USA)
2000 census actual: 2,148,010 (ranked 23rd largest MSA in USA)

Population of the Columbus, OH MSA:
July 1, 2006 estimate: 1,725,570 (ranked 31st largest MSA in USA)
2000 census actual: 1,612,841 (ranked 23rd largest MSA in USA)

Source: Estimates of Population Change for Metropolitan Statistical Areas and Rankings: July 1, 2005 to July 1, 2006

[rubygreta]

Interestingly, Cleveland is just about ground zero for the subprime mortgage crisis, while Buffalo is in better shape than most cities.

I believe the main reason is that a lot of the subprime mortgage companies would not provide financing if the loan was under $50,000. In Cleveland, through fraud and flipping, they were able to inflate property values in inner city areas to $60,000 and $70,000, which made them mortgagable.

In Buffalo, no amont of fraud and flipping could get your typical east side property to sell for $60,000 to $70,000. Therefore, no (or much fewer) subprime mortgages.

[Mo_reen]

Wow. I love your insight. And I do agree. However... you have to give the people a little more credit because there is nothing wrong with having hope, even if it is hopeless. You know that the people of Buffalo have the most heart of anyone! We have more heart than a heart transplant recipient! Yes, we're proud... and there's nothing wrong with pride. Especially when your proud with very little in your pocket. That is the most honest kind of pride! A pride that you won't find "just anywhere". I love Buffalo and hate it at the same time. I love it for it's people, culture and architecture but I hate it for the bureaucracy. It's the infection of the "Good Ol' Boys". The red tape flows freely all across the state of NY and it's that tape that will choke the good people out of the state. BUT... no matter where a Buffalonian lives, they talk proudly of their heritage and of THEIR city. Their people. No matter where a Buffalonian moves to, they make their new city a "Little Buffalo", flying their Bills flags proudly, bragging about REAL pizza and wings and talking with their nasally Yankee accent (because it's everyone else that has the accent)! If only someone could save the people of Buffalo because they deserve saving. I would certainly do it if I could. No matter where I live, I will ALWAYS be a Buffalonian! And I will claim that title PROUDLY... because I love Buffalo and always will.

[SlickRick1]

Just a quick reply to the point that Cleveland is 3 times the size that is very innacurate and just plain false. Buffalo has 1.1 million in their metro area. Cleveland has 2.3 in theirs. Cleveland also counts the Akron area which is really not apart of the metro of cleveland and fair. If canada across from BUffalo was not canada and was a part of the us, then all of that population would be counted as well towards Buffalo's overall metro area, in which the population in their metro area would be much higher. Statistics can sometimes be very skewed. It is important to do research and understand the facts rather than just make up numbers which suit your own opinion.

[SlickRick1]

If the canadian neighbors across the bridge from Buffalo were counted, as well as NIagara Falls, then Buffalo's population would be more near cincinnati's total of about 1.6 million. That would make Cleveland about twenty five percent bigger, not three times.

[bmd51]

How about the high taxes in western NY as opposed to Cleveland area.

[UpstaterInBklyn]

Just a quick reply to the point that Cleveland is 3 times the size that is very innacurate and just plain false. Buffalo has 1.1 million in their metro area. Cleveland has 2.3 in theirs. Cleveland also counts the Akron area which is really not apart of the metro of cleveland and fair. If canada across from BUffalo was not canada and was a part of the us, then all of that population would be counted as well towards Buffalo's overall metro area, in which the population in their metro area would be much higher. Statistics can sometimes be very skewed. It is important to do research and understand the facts rather than just make up numbers which suit your own opinion.

I did the research at the US Census bureau. And I am stating fact.

The number I quoted when I said "three times the population" refers to the population of the Combined Metropolitan Statistical area (CMSA), which combines the Cleveland, Akron, and Ashtabula MSAs. The number you quoted (2.3M) was for the Cleveland MSA only. BTW - the actual Cleveland MSA number is 2.1 million, which you could have read in my earlier post in this thread (Post #12) and followed the Census bureau link for verification.

The reason I used the CMSA, not the MSA is because CMSAs "have social and economic ties as measured by commuting", where at least 25% of employed individuals "interchange" from one MSA to another within the CMSA. Furthermore, CMSAs "can be characterized as representing larger regions that reflect broader social and economic interactions, such as wholesaling, commodity distribution, and weekend recreation activities" Source (PDF link)

The original question was about economics, and CMSAs provide a better basis for economic comparisons than MSAs.

It is you who seem to be letting opinions get in the way of facts, stating that:

"Cleveland also counts the Akron area which is really not apart of the metro of cleveland".

I don't know to whom you are referring to when you say "Cleveland", but the US Census Bureau does not incorporate Akron the Cleveland-Elyria-Mentor MSA. However, the Census Bureau does include Akron in the larger Cleveland-Akron-Elyria, OH CMSA. While you may have an opinion about Akron not belonging in the Cleveland CMSA (or MSA - it's not clear from your post), the economic and geographical facts say otherwise.

It seems that it is you who needs to do research and understand the facts at little better!

[SlickRick1]

So if thats your argument how do you figure 2.1 is three times bigger than 1.1. Need math? Anyway, If I was wrong about Akron, I apologize, I seen it somewhere else, which indeed I did question myself. I just shouldn't have put it. But also you have to take into account my overall point in which Buffalo because of US canada boundary does not get to include all of the neighboring population across the bridge. You can almost throw a rock into canada from Buffalo. Yet many canadians work over in Buffalo and the only reason that it is not counted is because it's another country. However I have been to cleveland and I have lived in Buffalo and they seem very similar in size and look. I think Cleveland's downtown is a bit more grittier. All in all there just similar size cities, so stop acting like Cleveland is some big gigantic city because it's not. It is just like Buffalo, and just like Buffalo it has lost a lot of population. Bottom line is both cities are small in compared to bigger cities like NYC, Chicago, Houston, LA, etc. Lets not get get blinded by our love of our own cities and act like their better than they really are.

[UpstaterInBklyn]

As I clearly stated in my last post, and in my original post, my "3X" statement was referring to the Cleveland-Akron-Elyria, OH CMSA, which is home to just over 2.8 million people. Not the Cleveland MSA (2.1M). Basically its Cleveland (2.1M) plus Akron (700K). The problem isn't my math, its your reading.

Sorry for being so pedantic about this, but I'm a very rigorous fact-checker when it comes to my own posts, so I take it a little personally when someone accuses me of not doing research and not understanding facts.

BTW - I am not from Cleveland and could personally care less about it. I'm actually from Buffalo and live in NYC (look at my screen name).

My original post was simply a statement of economic and geographical facts to provide an answer to the OP's question. I like to study and discuss topics relating to the intersection of economics and urban geography.

I agree with you regarding the similarities between Buffalo and Cleveland, and the fact that Cleveland is also suffering economically, but, in response to the OP's question, I was simply making the point that it has a somewhat larger and more diverse economy than Buffalo.