Two Californias (Los Angeles, Davis, Wallace: how much, to buy, sales tax)

[Lovehound]

Originally Posted by .highnlite

Victor Davis Hanson is a right wing nut case, you cannot take anything he states at face value, He has and does distort facts to fit his particular and peculiar viewpoint.

Why am I amused that whenever there is any issue to contest that you'll be on one side and I'll be 180 degrees on the other side?

I highly recommend "Mexifornia: A State of Becoming" by Victor Davis Hanson. It is the best explanation of California's illegal immigration problem that I've ever seen, and each and every point that Hanson makes on the subject is dead on right!

(However I don't want to discuss the book or the subject in this topic or in this forum. That's a subject best left for another time and another place.)

Anyway I recommend the book. The author is an expert on California, on California's problems, and on the Central Valley. You may not agree with him but he certainly knows the subject (IMO).

[KC6ZLV]

Originally Posted by .highnlite

Of course, without water, no farms would exist, no people would exist, no animals would exist, aside from kangaroo rats, In the west, the water is in the mountains, the people are on the flats, to get that water requires big government, the water is paid for by all California tax payers for the benefit of a few, these schemes are water welfare, and can be considered fine examples of socialism. And may lead in the end to the destruction of the farm land. There are plenty of examples in history of irrigation societies turning their land into a desert.

some light reading for you;
Hydraulic empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Beyond the 100th Meridian, Wallace Stegner

Cadillac Desert, Marc Reisner

That wasn't a very well thought out reply and it appears as though you don't have a clue about the various water projects in California, other than they move water. Some are federally-funded, some are state-funded, others receive funding from a variety of sources.

The San Joaquin Valley has enough natural water resources to sustain a moderate population and farming along, mainly, the east side from Tulare County and north. Farming on the Westside is another matter, and this is where the issue comes into importance.

Destruction of farmland from irrigation is the result of mineral deposits left behind after the water has evaporated, assuming those minerals are in the runoff from wherever irrigation water originates. It varies by area.

I have a problem with you and the left calling it "water welfare." Especially when the target is farmers and the hatred it simply motivated by politics, while the LA Basin gets a free pass for the use of subsidized water because they vote for Democrats. If you want to throw the term "welfare" around, an good argument can be made about the failings of subsidizing a class of people who exist and have more children only because they are subsidized at the cost of taxpayers. Do take note that I'm not making a reference about everyone who has used our social system. It serves a legitimate purpose. I'm referring to the class of people who have no desire to do anything but live at the expense of society while producing nothing more than another generation of the same. Society receives no benefit from this. The whole country has received a huge return in our investment in the Central Valley Project, which was a federally-funded project, not California, as you implied.

[Lovehound]

Originally Posted by KC6ZLV

the LA Basin gets a free pass for the use of subsidized water because they vote for Democrats.

I don't understand. Are you contesting something that Highnlite said, or do you yourself believe in the above statement? Please explain.

Originally Posted by KC6ZLV

I'm referring to the class of people who have no desire to do anything but live at the expense of society while producing nothing more than another generation of the same.

Wow, ain't that the truth! The only thing that amazes me is that the voters and taxpayers put up with these human tapeworms.

[.highnlite]

I use the term "welfare" and the term "socialism" because those are two terms the staunch Republican farmer throws around as if they were some sort of evil. Well, they are evil, unless you benefit from them, in which case, they are neither welfare or socialism.

Me and the left? too funny, those lefties,

I think you may want to check the accuracy of your Federal system vs State system.

Funny thing, we write our checks for our California Aquaduct water to the State of California, being farmers and all, but the really funny part, we have been writing those checks for 50 years, but we don't use a drop of that water.

We rather pride ourselves on not being welfare socialist farmers like those Central Valley farmers, we being good free enterprise Americans and all.

To say that a water system or any system paid for by all taxpayers, but benefits a few, is not welfare or socialism, is curious. Now, you can say the nation benefits, which of course it does, but the difference between the cost of the water, and what the farmer pays, is a definite benefit to the farmer, as his irrigation is subsidized by the taxpayers, much like public lands ranching, you know, the difference between private land and public land AUM fees.

[KC6ZLV]

Originally Posted by Lovehound

I don't understand. Are you contesting something that Highnlite said, or do you yourself believe in the above statement? Please explain.

I mentioned this because the left seems to have an issue with farmers receiving water, but they don't make an issue out of the water going to the LA Basin.

[Lovehound]

I'm still struggling to understand what you're getting at. We don't get free water in Los Angeles. I could be wrong but I doubt farmers get free water either. Is anybody arguing that we should have price controls so that each and every person and business in California pays exactly the same amount for every drop of water?

It's a good thing I'm moving out of California soon. I won't have to understand these complex issues anymore!

[UB50]

Originally Posted by Kele

Abandoned farms, Third World living conditions, pervasive public assistance -- welcome to the once-thriving Central Valley.



Sad, sad state of affairs in the state that I love.....

Two Californias - Victor Davis Hanson - National Review Online

This article is hysterically funny! The man is living the Libertarian dream and he should enjoy it! He doesn't have a crumbling "socialist" road to drive on. He's got a crumbling Libertarian road to drive on and if he wants it fixed, he better get out there and fix it.

Corporatist farms? Republicans love them! No regulations for businesses or anything else? Welcome to Libertarian heaven!

[KC6ZLV]

Originally Posted by Lovehound

I'm still struggling to understand what you're getting at. We don't get free water in Los Angeles. I could be wrong but I doubt farmers get free water either. Is anybody arguing that we should have price controls so that each and every person and business in California pays exactly the same amount for every drop of water?

It's a good thing I'm moving out of California soon. I won't have to understand these complex issues anymore!

An an individual level, no, the water isn't free. Farmers pay some amount per thousands of acre feet of water and residents in Los Angeles pay some amount, probably in tens of thousands of gallons. However, the cost of transporting the water is subsidized, reducing the amount paid for water.

[Lovehound]

Originally Posted by UB50

This article is hysterically funny! The man is living the Libertarian dream and he should enjoy it! He doesn't have a crumbling "socialist" road to drive on. He's got a crumbling Libertarian road to drive on and if he wants it fixed, he better get out there and fix it.

Corporatist farms? Republicans love them! No regulations for businesses or anything else? Welcome to Libertarian heaven!

I'm trying to figure out what this and many of the posts in this topic have to do with Hanson's article (and nevermind the ad hominem attacks on its author).

Did anybody here actually read the article? I'll admit I just this minute finished reading it, and I was stunned! It's an amazing article and it's dead on! This doesn't have anything at all to do with water. The article is about the collision between elitist liberals on one hand and illegal immigration and the consequences of illegal immigration on the other. The liberals focus on touchy feely things in the population centers (SF, LA, etc.) and have a laissez faire attitude attitude about what happens in the arm pit of California, its Central Valley. The middle-upper class flees and leaves the illegal aliens unemployed and the area is festering. The bleeding heart liberals have all kinds of welfare programs and the people in these areas are milking the system because that's all they've got. Sure they're milking the system in the population centers too, for example here in Los Angeles, but we just don't see them because they're lost in the multitudes. Have you noticed if the person ahead of you in the grocery checkout line is paying with a welfare card? Not me! I'm too busy looking at the fat lady and analyzing her purchase of Ding Dongs and chocolate ice cream and microwavable dinners. (Nope, not a single fresh fruit or vegetable, no meat that isn't processed, plenty of chips and dips and anything that adds to her junk in the trunk.) She probably paid with a welfare card.

Hanson's article is an affirmation of the end point of unchecked illegal immigration colliding with liberals and their welfare state, charging the cost of the entire operation to working professionals and large corporations. The result? The working professionals move to a state with more friendly tax laws, the corporations move to states that are more friendly to business. What you get left is a state where many/most of the workers are employed by government in one way or another, and many of the consumers are non-working people receiving public assistance/support.

Reading this article affirms my decision to get the hell out of California before the whole charade collapses. By the way I was born in Los Angeles, I'm a native Californian. You liberals ruined the state, you and your welfare and your public employee cohorts. I'm laughing, thinking about a state where there are two major classes of people: government employees and welfare recipients.

Enjoy what you've made of the state. You deserve it.

[.highnlite]

I mentioned this because the left seems to have an issue with farmers receiving water, but they don't make an issue out of the water going to the LA Basin.

And for the good part, he lumped me, a farmer, in with the dreaded "left" regarding Hanson's article and reading it. He used to have a weekly column in our local paper, but, he was so far out in right field that even the right leaning paper dumped him. As soon as I read the words "elitist liberals" I know we are in for a Phd, that is, Piled Higher and Deeper.

Hanson may not be certifiably nuts, but, he is danged close.

Hanson's article is an affirmation of the end point of unchecked illegal immigration colliding with liberals and their welfare state

Look, illegal immigration is the product of conservative Republicans, not liberal Democrats. I realize this is difficult to get one's mind around, but, I am happy to carefully explain it, if you are willing to listen.