Middle class. How do you define it? (Santa Ana, Orange: middle-class, apartment)

[markas214]

I would say household income between $40,000 and $200,000/year. Low middle to upper middle. It's basically the place where you don't recieve any benefits fromr the l government but before you lose all your typical family tax breaks. The federal government defines the poverty level for 2006 as below $20,000 for a family of 4. Does that mean that a family of 4 making $20,001 is middle class in the eyes of Uncle Sam?

[Kathleenh54]

I think Uncle thinks anybody making more than 50k a year is 'wealthy'.

[Reivax]

Middle class to me means I can meet all my basic needs. I eat, provide a roof, pay my necessary living expense like utilities, school needs for the children, have a transportation means, be able to take the wife out to dinner every couple weeks, take the family on a vacation once every couple years, and still put a few bucks a way each month towards retirement.

Well, that's about a $150k annual income for that.
Considering avg. annual for orange County is, what, $50k per household, both people working,

In my opinion, Orange County is 3/4 low economic class. 75% of the people are a couple missed paychecks away from being in bad shape.

[NYSD1995]

Income does not define class. Lifestyle does. For instance - the 50k income earner who has lived in his home for years and has the tiny mortgage is doing about as well as the 150k income earner who just bought his house last year. Assuming they can both afford their lifestyle, they are about the same.

As an example, in my neghborhood my neighbors are mostly retired, and I earn about triple what they ever earned in their prime. But our lifestyles are pretty much the same. We live in the same neighborhood, have most of the same amenities, etc.

Now, if the person with the tiny mortgage has the high income, or the person with the huge mortgage has a really really high income, then they are both doing better than the group described below. So your retiree with no earned income and a million dollar home is not in the same class as the guy in a rented apartment with 5 kids a minimum-wage job.

Uncle Sam's definition of income (mostly as it relates to taxes) is based on the reality that our population is aging, and their is a large base of relatively low-income earners who are sitting on massive home equity. I pay an obscene amount of my salary to tax, and the only direction is up. This trend is only going to increase.

The younger generation is disproportionally earning higher incomes but has less net worth due to higher housing costs and a higher tax burden (not to mention 4$ lattes and leased BMW's). The challenge will be how this will equal out given that the aging population outnumbers the younger generation almost exponentially.

[emailvasally]

income would have to define the class. not the way you spend it. I know many people making 20k-30k that live like they are upper middle and I will have to support them when they get old and claim bankruptcy! then you have the people making 50-60k that have more net worth than someone making 150k. that doesnt mean they are upper class. it just means they are smart and living within their means.

[NYSD1995]

Originally Posted by emailvasally

income would have to define the class. not the way you spend it. I know many people making 20k-30k that live like they are upper middle and I will have to support them when they get old and claim bankruptcy! then you have the people making 50-60k that have more net worth than someone making 150k. that doesnt mean they are upper class. it just means they are smart and living within their means.

Well, the question is this: is class defined by some financial metric (i.e. income, net worth, etc..) or is it really just a social distinction focused around the appearance of that financial metric? My hunch is that for most people it's the latter, i.e. if you drive a nice car and live in a nice house in an upper-middle-class neighborhood, you percieve yourself to be upper-middle class, even if you are one paycheck away from the poorhouse.

[UseJeff]

Function: noun
: a class occupying a position between the upper class and the lower class; especially : a fluid heterogeneous socioeconomic grouping composed principally of business and professional people, bureaucrats, and some farmers and skilled workers sharing common social characteristics and values

Now you may be as surprised by that definition as I was... I personally thought that if there were 5 rows of desks, each running about 6 deep... then the 3rd row, 3rd back would be considered the middle of the class. Who knew!

[pandabear]

Defining the middle class is like defining good and evil. Everyone has their own definition, and even more so, everyone will tell you they are "good", just like almost everyone will tell you they are "middle class". The middle class is simlpy where the majority of american's sit on the bell curve...but even this is confusing. Bell curve of what?? Home worth? net worth? job profession? expenditures and lifestyle?

Is a drug dealer netting in 100,000$ of untaxable dollars, keeps all their money in shoe boxes, who drives a mercedes and bought his condo in all cash, considered upper middle class??? i dont know and i dont care.

everyone feels the need to fit themselves into some little category, so they can easily define themselves. its pretty lame.

difference between upper middle class and lower middle class...i'll go with KARL MARX on this one(which i rarley ever do).

youve got your bourgiouse (middle class),proletariate(working class), and your capitalists(upper class).

as capitalism expands, so does the disparity between rich and poor. Naturally the elastic band rips in the middle. So who sees the most drastic change? the middle.

Increasing costs in taxes to pay for amenities of the growing working class, as well as the ever increasing costs of goods and services that keep businesses in competition inevitably cause the middle class to burst. There is simply a point were the middle class just cant take the strain anymore, and i think in this decade we are seeing just that.

So what happens? Well those who are lucky, continue to scrape by and maintain their bougious, middle class status. This is the true middle class, or as we have come to know it, the "upper middle class". Things that the american middle class have grown acustomed to (money for retirement, money for kids to go to state college, more than 1 car, a suburban household)have become so costly that only the true middle class or upper middle class can afford these things.

Those who can't, fall into a new category, the petty bougiouse Marx calls it, or as we know it, the LOWER middle class. These are middle class people that can no longer afford to lead typical middle class lifestyles. They as a result mesh in with the working class, which by the way is going through MUCH WORSE.

Marx predicts that inevitably, it will be haves and have nots until capitalism inevitably collapses. Don't agree, well were do you live, Santa Ana or Laguna Nigel... theres not too much inbetween.

[Reivax]

Originally Posted by Sassberto

Well, the question is this: is class defined by some financial metric (i.e. income, net worth, etc..) or is it really just a social distinction focused around the appearance of that financial metric? My hunch is that for most people it's the latter, i.e. if you drive a nice car and live in a nice house in an upper-middle-class neighborhood, you percieve yourself to be upper-middle class, even if you are one paycheck away from the poorhouse.

I'll bet most people want to interpret "class" by your second definition.
We don't have old-world social classes here. I can be born in a pig trough, raised in poverty and still make it to be CEO of HugeCorp, or President of the United States.

Seeing as how class doesn't exist, maybe it would be more fun to rate everyone by some fancy new statistic derived from a complicated formula comparing your potential vs. what you have actually achieved in life.

[markas214]

Originally Posted by pandabear

Defining the middle class is like defining good and evil. Everyone has their own definition, .

Yes that is why I asked. I'm not looking for a specific definition but opiniuons and perceptions. It seems some believe it's a lifestyle vs a specific income. I'm somewhere in between. I agree it is a lifestyle but also find it takes acertain amount of disposable income to live that lifestyle. Geographic location as well as assests and debt definately figure into the equation. Some people are living an extravagant lifestyle while being cash poor.

Saying that class "doesn't exist" is wrong in my opinion. There is a lot of wealth in this country concentrated in a small percentage of individuals and families. People own several homes, have servants and much greater access to the polititians who make the rules. While it is possible to be a rags to riches success many people aren't intelllectually capable. The Walton family did nothing to earn the wealth inherited from the Walmart fortune. Neither did the Hiltons. To these people money is nothing compared to the average (middle class) individual.