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You have a good point. It is a global economy now. People often forget that. I forgot that. Kinda funny because I was ranting to some friends not long ago about how the upcoming campaign is going to politicize outsourcing. Some of it is due to corporations trying to maximize profits, and some of it is because they just need to have operations overseas too. It's not like foreign firms don't have operations here as well. All of it will be portrayed as evil. As I digress
Way back in this thread I discussed better wages and working conditions for agricultural workers. There is a very good chance that if they did have better wages, the costs would rise just enough for the Wal-Mart's and CostCo's of the world to simply get their produce from Mexico. Would that be a good thing or a bad thing for the US? On the one hand you'd have farmers in America going out of business. Not all of them, but some. I'll admit I have more sympathy for a small family farmer working the land himself than I do the others. So if we lost some farms in the US, what good could come out of it? For starters it isn't a bad thing if your neighbors are prosperous; not in a global economy. For every business hurt there is some other business helped. You basically have a choice. You outsource jobs/give business to other countries, or you import cheaper labor to stay competitive. Either way you displace American jobs. When I was young much of my family worked in the various mills in NH. They don't exist anymore. That work is done overseas now. NH took a big hit but now has new businesses and tech startups occupying those old mills. What would have been the better outcome, what actually happened or if we had tried to stem the outsourcing by bringing in cheap labor to work in the factories? Some people don't like the thought of a global economy. It's inevitable. It's going to happen. A global economy will make our world a more peaceful world. Why? Mutually assured economic destruction. It would be really really hard to have another world war right now.
There would be no faster and better way to solve the illegal immigration problem than to help Mexico become prosperous. Not only would illegal immigration slow down to a trickle, you'd have more potential consumers for US goods and services. Of course, you need to address the rampant corruption in Mexico. Corruption sucks the wealth out of a society. I'm in the Czech Republic for the summer. In 2 decades some of these former communist countries have gone from communist impoverishment to having a pretty decent standard of living and a modern infrastructure. They got a lot of help from the EU. The EU knew it was in their best interests to help them prosper. It should be pointed out that not all illegal immigration is from Mexico. I meet quite a few Czechs over here who used to work in America illegally. Why aren't they there today? Simple. Their country became prosperous. A home in Prague is nearly as expensive as a home in San Diego. I see as many luxury cars on the road here as I do driving on I-5. New homes are cropping up everywhere at a blistering pace. Other countries in the EU are benefitting from this newfound prosperity to the East. The same thing would hold true if Mexico became prosperous.
BUT, there is always a but. Even though the EU has open borders and its citizens are free to travel and work anywhere, many of the countries placed temporary restrictions on workers from the poorer EU countries. They did this for 2 reasons. First of all, without any controls there would have been a flood of cheap labor moving from the poorer countries to the richer countries. They would have suffered a legal immigration problem that would have decreased the standards of living of their own citizens. The second reason is because they were smart enough to know that the only long-term solution is to encourage these poorer (mostly Eastern European) countries to prosper themselves, and not simply serve as a supply of cheap labor for other countries in Europe. It worked. Yes, the EU has some serious issues. In some regards the doom and gloom talk is much like the doom and gloom talk about CA...overblown. One thing they did do right is integrate a bunch of countries stuck in the 1960's and help them make a remarkable turnaround. It's just amazing to see how far they have come in roughly 20 years.
Yeah, this is an interesting subject.
Pretty much ... heh
One compensating reality is the cost and other logistics of moving actual production, however. This particularly relates to agricultural product. Timing and refrigeration are critical and expensive. The energy used to move the product is also huge. Cost of gas, diesel, electricity play big. To say nothing of the reality that eating local is healthier. Bodies are subtly interactive with their environment at all times ... your body knows that strawberries do not grow in Minnesota in winter. Flying them in from Chile may be a Whole Foods customer delight, but it is costly to the global environment -- and to consumers' health. EAT LOCAL AND IN SEASON.
This is one of the great inherent advantages California has for its residents: year round fresh produce of the highest qualities at some of the domestically lowest costs to produce. The further away you go from that base, the less healthy and more expense to ship. Mexico can be a reasonably good supplier to California -- which doesn't need Mexican produce except to compete cost-wise ... but Mexican produce flown, trucked, or railed to Minnesota becomes less and less advantageous. Minnesotans (I used to be one hundreds of years back) need to live on different diets in winter -- including fruits and vegetables that store well: potatoes, carrots, apples, onions, etc. and then burst forth end of spring. And of course lots of winter meats and fish.
Yes, except it's not passive support, now the liberals actively support unlimited illegal immigration and deep down they have to know it's all about bringing wages down and putting Americans out of work. In the past liberals like Cesar Chavez, Ralph Abernathy, and Walter Mondale even marched to the border to bring attention to the problem of illegal immigration but today they have this belief that there should be no limits on immigration, especially on illegal immigration. Especially immigration of those who are unable to support their large numbers of children and want US welfare programs like food stamps and Medicaid.
As always, your statements are parroting talk radio stupidities. Prove that liberals "actively support unlimited illegal immigration" ... prove any support or reality of: "immigration of those who are unable to support their large numbers of children and want US welfare programs like food stamps and Medicaid".
I have challenged you many times to back up any of your whining. You have never once been able to. But you just keep on vomiting up this crap.
Yes you mentioned that "mature economy" thing, did the economy just become mature when the recession started? If not...well....we're left with the same issue. Why didn't higher rates of immigration (both legal and illegal) before the recession result in employment problems?
Claiming that low-skill immigrants depress wages in certain sectors is one thing, claiming that immigrants cause unemployment is another. The latter doesn't even make sense...in principle.
Regardless, California is filled with hard working immigrants and they continue to come into the country....it is for this reason that I have hope that California's economy will improve. I'd have little hope......if it was left to a bunch of aging Americans.... I thank you for your efforts in encouraging these folks to move to other states. Keep up the good work....
Hey, shouldn't you be out of California by now? I think the Florida forum is calling your name....they want to see your "facts and data".
Hey, shouldn't you be out of California by now? I think the Florida forum is calling your name....they want to see your "facts and data".
I don't frequent the Florida forums anymore, but the state has a lot of problems and issues that ytg will truly be kept busy with pie charts, graphs and mile long rants. Not only do we have a foreclosure crisis and etc, along with that we have the likes of the Florida Freak Show aka Casey Anthony, The Miami Causeway Zombie and stupid people who get attacked by alligators. Look Bubba, let's go swimmin, "thar gators in themz waters, no problem just lose and arm and talk about it like it will grow back someday.
That sounds like a very unfortunate situation on many levels. I'm truly sorry to hear that. I know it happens more often than we realize.
However, does it not prove the point that illegals are willing to work for less? I'm sure legals would have been hired were they willing to work for less, too, no?
Hi,
Legals can't really do so as they would then have legal recourse against the employer.
Yes some people might be able to work for less than they get now, but not below minimum wage.
In addition many of the jobs they do, have legal employees wanting them, but the business wants to run the cost of labor down by hiring people who have already shown they will ignore/break the law and continue to do so in many more ways. They crowd into houses beyond legal/safe limits, drive without insurance and even drivers licenses, lie to many about their status, pay for forged documents and still more. Thy cost to society and it's social fabric goes way beyond the labor rate. Just think of all the legal children who need work experience in their life but can't get it as illegals flood the starting position jobs. It goes far beyond just money.
Legals can't really do so as they would then have legal recourse against the employer.
Yes some people might be able to work for less than they get now, but not below minimum wage.
In addition many of the jobs they do, have legal employees wanting them, but the business wants to run the cost of labor down by hiring people who have already shown they will ignore/break the law and continue to do so in many more ways. They crowd into houses beyond legal/safe limits, drive without insurance and even drivers licenses, lie to many about their status, pay for forged documents and still more. Thy cost to society and it's social fabric goes way beyond the labor rate. Just think of all the legal children who need work experience in their life but can't get it as illegals flood the starting position jobs. It goes far beyond just money.
Yes you mentioned that "mature economy" thing, did the economy just become mature when the recession started? If not...well....we're left with the same issue. Why didn't higher rates of immigration (both legal and illegal) before the recession result in employment problems?
Claiming that low-skill immigrants depress wages in certain sectors is one thing, claiming that immigrants cause unemployment is another. The latter doesn't even make sense...in principle.
Regardless, California is filled with hard working immigrants and they continue to come into the country....it is for this reason that I have hope that California's economy will improve. I'd have little hope......if it was left to a bunch of aging Americans.... I thank you for your efforts in encouraging these folks to move to other states. Keep up the good work....
Hey, shouldn't you be out of California by now? I think the Florida forum is calling your name....they want to see your "facts and data".
As expected, no reasoned/data backed reply.. Just the usual foolishness.
You're asking tons of questions.. Ignoring answers and asking more of the same questions.
Read the papers I linked you to. Your principals are wrong namely because they're backed by nothing.
Legals can't really do so as they would then have legal recourse against the employer.
Yes some people might be able to work for less than they get now, but not below minimum wage.
In addition many of the jobs they do, have legal employees wanting them, but the business wants to run the cost of labor down by hiring people who have already shown they will ignore/break the law and continue to do so in many more ways. They crowd into houses beyond legal/safe limits, drive without insurance and even drivers licenses, lie to many about their status, pay for forged documents and still more. Thy cost to society and it's social fabric goes way beyond the labor rate. Just think of all the legal children who need work experience in their life but can't get it as illegals flood the starting position jobs. It goes far beyond just money.
The social impact actually has been quantified actually and it ranges from 1-4 trillion in the coming years.. An even bigger number will come from illegal immigrant amnesty and this doesn't take into consideration h1b-visa abuse for high skilled labor in which companies hire middle age immigrants and don't train up qualified American new grads from University... But on goes the attitude, I got a job and others do too.. Who cares
If you can't measure up from someone from Mumbai or Shanghai, than your going to be a relic in a few years. I worked and will work with many H1B holders in the future, nothing in the world is going to change that when both China and India are pumping out more Engineering grads than the USA for the foreseeable future. As much as I don't like it, there is little one can do about it. Starting your own company is only a temporary solution.
Quantity vs. Quality .. I have worked w/ many myself and have remotely managed quite a few engineers who reside in Bangalore .. My personal experience is that the quality is night iand day. Sure they work very hard and are go-getters but they generally lack the polish that many graduates from American institutions have. Culturally its night and day.. Many of them are yes 'men' and fall into cultural mediocracy and group think when you cluster them too tight... Which is why many of the old guard tech companies who don't have diversity of minds are falling behind the innovation and business growth curve.
Operations under them in many areas lacks innovations in processes .. They tend to do what they are told in the way it was done previously and not think outside the box.
^ This is all my experience.. Results may vary. I have friends who are on H1b-visas. I've actually got some of them better jobs then the crap ones they had at old guard tech companies in the valley (the ones that primarily abuse/abused h1b-visas). I went to school with a good number of international students. The quality of overseas educational institutions still is nowhere near that of American standards. They can graduate 1,000 engineers to 1 and they wont dominate until they pick up the quality of their institutions.
But just as Chen says, it's not all about the money. Chinese scientists are offered lucrative incentives to publish - equivalent to several years' salary for a paper that reaches a top international academic journal - which Chinese scientists in the West argue have skewed the research effort towards quantity rather than quality, leading to a series of damaging scandals involving plagiarism and the falsification of data.
I think the ratio of papers that get published in top ranking international journals (America vs. china) is something like 1:0.02 ... They graduate tons more people in STEM but again .. quality/quantity.
It's simple, there are millions of them unemployed over in China/India. Let them stay there and let their country figure out how to employ them and lets focus on getting the tens-hundreds of thousands of capable American graduates to work...
That being said, I'm really proud to be a part of this generation... Given the abuses by companies and them not giving American graduates a chance, many recent grads are creating their own jobs/businesses and disrupting the very clowns who wouldn't give them a chance. No one's scared of global competition. Just let them stay over in their country and compete from there if they're so great. The data shows they aren't. So they can graduate however many they want.. the vast majority (into the millions are unemployed).
P.S - The party seems to be wrapping up over seas : http://economywatch.msnbc.msn.com/_n...d-worries?lite Don't look to China to save the economy this time
Analysis: China's rapid-fire economy is slowing down, at a bad time: Europe is in recession and the U.S. recovery is stalling.
Power in numbers...
I don't even want to get into the potential social unrest china could face if it doesn't maintain a large economic growth rate.
Let their problems stay over there and let them sort out how to employ them.
Last edited by yeahthatguy; 07-13-2012 at 03:14 PM..
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... heh 
As you were.
