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The problem you're citing has narrowed pretty quickly in the last decade where a decade ago the best you get for 10 minutes of charge time is about 50 miles. Now the top line for a mass production vehicle is about 150 miles in ten minutes which is a three fold improvement in a decade.
Sure, it's definitely better than in the past when EVs were limited to fleet vehicles which were just glorified golf carts. But even at current levels in the best situations, there isn't an EV that's comparable in all ways to existing ICE powered options. For the casual commuter, an overnight charge is fine. But on a long trip, you're at the mercy of charging stations that just aren't as common as a normal gas station. That's why I said that not all types of driving situations are equitable yet. I have confidence this will change just as you do, but I don't intend to be the pioneer.
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The fire danger of lithium-ion batteries is there, but it's a fairly small risk compared to internal combustion engine vehicle fires. Thus far the stats bear out that internal combustion engine vehicle fire risk is about 19X higher than that of EV fires.
And how many more ICE vehicle are there than EVs? That's just a numbers game. More regular cars mean greater odds. And I wasn't talking about just the risk of the car being the source of the fire itself, more that the components being present in a fire makes it that much more dangerous. The ever-present smaller batteries in phones, laptops and power tools alone are bad enough. Having a massive set of batteries in your garage is that much worse without some sort of a plan. Fuel burns up quickly and is easier to extinguish.
I think what's perhaps more alarming is the number of people who seem to have strong opinions on the matter and seem to repeat the same inaccurate criticisms and statements over and over again which you can see even on this thread, but elsewhere including outside of city-data. It's odd how much of a mass of this there is and the kind of ready assent there is from people who very evidently have no real professional grounding or experience to have that kind of certainty. The world really is absurd.
And your own opinions are based on what? It looks like you lean heavily toward the gospel of the EV industry which isn't any more meaningful or "true".
Our last was over 200k, and had the original battery pack at +15 years when we sold it. Can't complain about that. However, it's the drive-by-wire components that got expensive in the end, particularly the brake "booster" (not really a traditional booster) and some other things. One of the big myths being promoted by EV propaganda is that there isn't any maintenance once all the dinosaur-tech stuff is removed. That's far from true though.
Right now, hybrids are still the best of both worlds, especially if someone is doing a lot of stop and go commuting which is where they tend to shine.
Our last was over 200k, and had the original battery pack at +15 years when we sold it. Can't complain about that. However, it's the drive-by-wire components that got expensive in the end, particularly the brake "booster" (not really a traditional booster) and some other things. One of the big myths being promoted by EV propaganda is that there isn't any maintenance once all the dinosaur-tech stuff is removed. That's far from true though.
Right now, hybrids are still the best of both worlds, especially if someone is doing a lot of stop and go commuting which is where they tend to shine.
Don't know what to tell you. I know how much money I put into our 2nd car (BMW) and my past cars. This car has been nothing compared to those. If it explodes today, it was one of the best buys I've ever had on a car.
Sure, it's definitely better than in the past when EVs were limited to fleet vehicles which were just glorified golf carts. But even at current levels in the best situations, there isn't an EV that's comparable in all ways to existing ICE powered options. For the casual commuter, an overnight charge is fine. But on a long trip, you're at the mercy of charging stations that just aren't as common as a normal gas station. That's why I said that not all types of driving situations are equitable yet. I have confidence this will change just as you do, but I don't intend to be the pioneer.
And how many more ICE vehicle are there than EVs? That's just a numbers game. More regular cars mean greater odds. And I wasn't talking about just the risk of the car being the source of the fire itself, more that the components being present in a fire makes it that much more dangerous. The ever-present smaller batteries in phones, laptops and power tools alone are bad enough. Having a massive set of batteries in your garage is that much worse without some sort of a plan. Fuel burns up quickly and is easier to extinguish.
I didn't say that EVs are comparable in all ways to existing ICE powered options. There are still some key issues for EVs in the context of four-wheeled highway legal private automobiles--they just aren't the ones mentioned by some of the posters here because those posters evidently have no idea what they're talking about. Again, while I am interested in a lot of engineering aspects of electric vehicles, I do not see them anywhere close to being a panacea for everything. I also think there's pretty good argument that glorified golf kart status, at least in the kind of hard to utilize for at least some of the use cases of four-wheeled highway legal vehicles ebbed out about a decade ago, if not with the Nissan Leaf, BMW i3 and Tesla Roadster, then at least with the Tesla Model S. Even before that time, they were several years before that where they had a somewhat reasonable case as commuter vehicles, albeit on the pricey side. At this point though, EVs are competitive in at least the premium segments of the market for the US (and more broadly in China and parts of Europe) with a few odd entries competitive in other segments.
Yes, for long trips, EVs are generally not as convenient. It's not the case for all situations and it's highly dependent on the route and the driving habits of that person. Some habits and driving situations greatly favor EVs, some do not. It is highly dependent on what your vehicle usage is like and where you are located.
No, it is not a numbers "game"-- you seem to be have not read the link or have not understood that this was not a comparison in absolute numbers of fires and you mistakenly use the term "odds" in there. That was a normalized assessment--as in, it's by proportion or ratio or perhaps in terms that's easier to understand "per number of vehicles" similar to when something is per capita for other metrics. Fuel burning up more quickly is not necessarily a good thing because it can be actually explosive--it's not great for a fire to extinguish itself by combusting rapidly enough to take you out with it. Remember, an internal combustion engine is a marvelous piece of engineering with an incredible number of moving parts trying to expertly mete out quantities of highly volatile fluid in very precise synchronization to produce a rapid series of tiny explosions. It's an engineering marvel, but it's a lot of moving parts and so a lot can go wrong. Mind you, I don't think the fire risk for internal combustion engine vehicles is enough to say that we shouldn't use them--only that given the fire risk of internal combustion engine vehicles has thus far been much higher than that of battery electric vehicles, it seems foolish to be particularly fearful of that fire risk for battery electric vehicles since we are already more than fine with the much higher risk internal combustion engine vehicles present.
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Originally Posted by joosoon
And your own opinions are based on what? It looks like you lean heavily toward the gospel of the EV industry which isn't any more meaningful or "true".
Based on physics, engineering, and the current state of technology which in multiple posts on this thread I support statements by actually linking to various fairly direct and recent sources. I included links to charge times, engineering surveys of duty cycles of batteries and what they are, median range surveys, average lifetime mileage of vehicles, fire risk assessments from a national risk assessment agency, examples of second use of battery packs, interviews with battery recyclers, consumer surveys of EV usage. If there's an actual particular part of this that you think you have a reasonable case for discussing, then I'm happy to do so. However, creating a false equivalency as if all of this were just opinions and there is no such thing as grounding in physics or engineering in the real world is just plain silly.
Perhaps you did not realize that links in this forum could be part of the text, so you didn't realize those were being posted. For most browser defaults, links over text in this forum are going to be in a slightly different color and underlined. For example, I'll take this link: https://www.autoinsuranceez.com/gas-...ric-car-fires/
and then put that within text like this (you should be able to click the "like this" part). That's a link to an auto insurance comparison tool that also took a look at fire risk with sources, so you have that as a companion to the earlier link I posted about the much higher fire risk ICE vehicles pose that was done by the Swedish national civilian risk assessment agency. This new link paints a more dire picture with internal combustion engine vehicles having about 60x more fires than electric vehicles normalized to per 100K vehicle sales of each (again, *not* an absolute numbers comparison which would naturally be far greater for internal combustion engine vehicles not just because of incidence rate but also base number of vehicles for that incidence rate). There are other such reports out there from reputable sources that have good reason to be accurate (insurance for money since insurers want to know what to charge, civilian agencies for public safety and policy) that have come out because we're about a decade and a half into modern EVs being available in the market and so there's more data available now. Of course, this is also still pretty early on, so this could potentially change. Also, I'm sure this varies quite a bit from model to model for both ICE and EV.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 06-22-2023 at 01:27 PM..
I'm impressed OyCrumbler. You seem to have really done your homework on this one and unlike many posters, your comments are not just regurgitated talking points. Thanks for the education on this topic.
Our last was over 200k, and had the original battery pack at +15 years when we sold it. Can't complain about that. However, it's the drive-by-wire components that got expensive in the end, particularly the brake "booster" (not really a traditional booster) and some other things. One of the big myths being promoted by EV propaganda is that there isn't any maintenance once all the dinosaur-tech stuff is removed. That's far from true though.
Right now, hybrids are still the best of both worlds, especially if someone is doing a lot of stop and go commuting which is where they tend to shine.
At this time I would only consider a hybrid myself as a alternative to a regular ICE vehicle. I only buy used cars. I prefer to pay cash for a car..... do not want to get stuck paying payments for a new car. Motorcycles are the only vehicles I ever have bought new. But, my motorcycle days are long behind me. A few years ago, I was tempted to buy this model of car. I found one for sale in immaculate condition......but, the vehicle had the 8 cylinder option and that gave me pause.......somebody else swooped in a bought the car for his wife
Don't know what to tell you. I know how much money I put into our 2nd car (BMW) and my past cars. This car has been nothing compared to those. If it explodes today, it was one of the best buys I've ever had on a car.
I was agreeing with you so you don't need to tell me anything. The fact that the hybrid battery pack lasted almost twice that of the warranty (I think it's 8 years covered by basic mfg) was a testament to the vehicle's longevity. The few repairs necessary over the 15 year period we owned barely moved the needle on cost of ownership. However, of the things that did need attention, at least one was much more expensive than an equivalent for a traditional vehicle. The point is, anything with moving parts is eventually going to need maintenance and EVs are no different in spite of the sales pitch that says otherwise.
Yes, for long trips, EVs are generally not as convenient.
And until they are, they aren't a comparable product to a traditional ICE vehicle or a hybrid.
Quote:
Based on physics, engineering, and the current state of technology which in multiple posts on this thread I support statements by actually linking to various fairly direct and recent sources. I included links to charge times, engineering surveys of duty cycles of batteries and what they are, median range surveys, average lifetime mileage of vehicles, fire risk assessments from a national risk assessment agency, examples of second use of battery packs, interviews with battery recyclers, consumer surveys of EV usage. If there's an actual particular part of this that you think you have a reasonable case for discussing, then I'm happy to do so. However, creating a false equivalency as if all of this were just opinions and there is no such thing as grounding in physics or engineering in the real world is just plain silly.
Perhaps you did not realize that links in this forum could be part of the text, so you didn't realize those were being posted. For most browser defaults, links over text in this forum are going to be in a slightly different color and underlined. For example, I'll take this link: https://www.autoinsuranceez.com/gas-...ric-car-fires/
Heh.
Thanks for trying to mansplain how to embed hyperlinks. Pretty funny.
Did you pay attention to the part in your random autoinsurance broker's link mentioning how much more difficult it is to extinguish Li Ion battery fires? Because I'm pretty sure that's precisely what I mentioned in my previous reply. That and the fact that much smaller, more common Li batteries than what powers EVs have started deadly fires and having even more Li in the presence of those fires, just adds another layer of danger. That's all there was to it.
More importantly, I've never said that the fire risk is a deal killer or that it's something to be fearful of beyond normal caution like anything else. That was your tangent. What I said was those risks haven't been adequately addressed.
At this time I would only consider a hybrid myself as a alternative to a regular ICE vehicle. I only buy used cars. I prefer to pay cash for a car..... do not want to get stuck paying payments for a new car. Motorcycles are the only vehicles I ever have bought new. But, my motorcycle days are long behind me. A few years ago, I was tempted to buy this model of car. I found one for sale in immaculate condition......but, the vehicle had the 8 cylinder option and that gave me pause.......somebody else swooped in a bought the car for his wife
My commuting days are over so I'm not scared off by gas mileage. Even so, with good driving habits modern V8s aren't as thirsty as they were in the past. I'd rather have the right vehicle for what I need to do than be constantly making do with something that's not. I don't want be the guy who I laugh at in the Home Depot parking lot trying to carry sheets of plywood on top of their Rav4.
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