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You can't compare Ontario with Newfoundland, which is tiny. It has fewer people than Scarborough.
In the US, Alaska has a per capita GDP of 61K, North Dakota 56k, compared with 46K for California, which is only slightly higher than Nebraska and Louisiana. Does that mean California is as poor as Nebraska and North Dakota is a lot richer? No wonder everything is leaving California to Nebraska?
Large provinces while having the largest and richest cities, often carry more poor people and social problems as well. Their economy is a lot more diversified as well, which means they support a lot of low end jobs - cashiers, waiters, etc. And they usually have a lot more homeless people as well. This is why you can jump to conclusion that Newfoundland does a lot better economically than Ontario based on some simple economic data.
Right. The homogeneity of North Dakota makes it difficult to compare to California. This is though the argument some make who say that Sweden (where I am from) is richer than the USA, Canada, or anywhere else in the world. I can tell you with certainty this is not the case, just like you can see that comparing homogenous North Dakota to California is a flawed comparison. California is also getting masses of immigrants, often illegal, where North Dakota remains isolated and uneventful. On the flipside, there is little question that North Dakota (like Sweden) does not have the level of poverty you can find in a big place like California, but we also don't have the level of rich people you can find there either.
What's interesting about this "poor" vs. GDP per capita debate is that regardless of GDP per capita figures, I do find that, for example, most central northern European countries (say starting in France and going northwards) all feel or appear slightly richer to me than the U.S. and Canada do. I do believe that statistically, both Canada and the U.S. are "richer" than most of these countries (except maybe Luxembourg and Norway), but in almost all of them the streets and highways tend to be in consistently better shape, public infrastructure like parks, schools, squares, rail and bus stations, metro stations, seem to be of higher quality materials and better maintained. There are far fewer "clunker" type cars driving around, and dog-eared and shabby housing and retail businesses are much less common sights as well.
Yes, there are areas in these countries that look bad (someone will inevitably point to the crappy high-rises of the French banlieues) but you can easily travel for weeks in these countries seeing very little of that. The affected areas seem comparatively small compared to the U.S. and also Canada where any leisure traveller will inevitably see fairly large swathes of crappy-looking areas.
So sure, I suppose there is a certain percentage "plus" in wealth that comes from higher GDP per capita that is reflected somewhere and benefits some people, but overall to me at least it doesn't always result in a society appearing or feeling more prosperous overall.
I can see some argument for Scandinavia vs. USA, but France? France is clearly poorer than the US to me. How many people in France can live like an average American guy, in a suburb with two cars in the driveway and a backyard for the kids to play in? You have to have real money in France to do that. Even compared to the Sweden, the average people in the US have more cars, bigger cars, newer cars, bigger houses, more space, more computers, newer computers, much more spending money (I estimate it is at least double in Virginia), and just more newer better goods in their possession. Perhaps Sweden is more orderly and equitable or has better health, but that doesn't equal rich. For France I don't see the comparison. France is a somewhat dirty and unorganized place than either US or Sweden. I don't see any advantages it carries.
I can see some argument for Scandinavia vs. USA, but France? France is clearly poorer than the US to me. How many people in France can live like an average American guy, in a suburb with two cars in the driveway and a backyard for the kids to play in? You have to have real money in France to do that. Even compared to the Sweden, the average people in the US have more cars, bigger cars, newer cars, bigger houses, more space, more computers, newer computers, much more spending money (I estimate it is at least double in Virginia), and just more newer better goods in their possession. Perhaps Sweden is more orderly and equitable or has better health, but that doesn't equal rich. For France I don't see the comparison. France is a somewhat dirty and unorganized place than either US or Sweden. I don't see any advantages it carries.
I guess it's a metter of perspective then. I see your point but in my eyes there is a nuanced difference between individual wealth and overall societal wealth.
I can see some argument for Scandinavia vs. USA, but France? France is clearly poorer than the US to me. How many people in France can live like an average American guy, in a suburb with two cars in the driveway and a backyard for the kids to play in? You have to have real money in France to do that. Even compared to the Sweden, the average people in the US have more cars, bigger cars, newer cars, bigger houses, more space, more computers, newer computers, much more spending money (I estimate it is at least double in Virginia), and just more newer better goods in their possession. Perhaps Sweden is more orderly and equitable or has better health, but that doesn't equal rich. For France I don't see the comparison. France is a somewhat dirty and unorganized place than either US or Sweden. I don't see any advantages it carries.
bigger cars and houses don't equal better life.
Plus, I don't know what your benchmark is. In highly urban cities like NYC, San Francisco, Boston etc, housing price is very high as well and not many people can afford a large detached home with two car garages. If you are looking at the Paris metro, the only comparable city is probably NYC. Even Chicago can hardly compare with what Paris offers.
And I am sure smaller French cities are a lot more affordable and owning larger houses are not as hard. As to cars, it is a different culture. I don't understand why big cars can necessarily make your life better, I mean how?? How does a high end BMW make your life considerably better than a fully equipped Toyota? It is more about vanity than anything else. Actually I cease to understand those who want luxury cars. They provide really little except some boasting rights. In general, French car ownership is quite high as well, and that in Italy is even higher than the US I believe (although Italy is definitely poorer).
You are right equity doesn't equal rich - but in the US, how many are really rich? Most are mid income people, right? Additionally, I firmly believe a more equitable although less wealthy nation provides more sense of happiness. For example if you make $70k in a neighbourhood where most people make $50k-100k, you will be perfectly OK with you life, happier than if you make $90k but surrounded by folks who make $100-150k. The constant need to make money drags down your perceived quality of life significant. I agree the US provides more potential for someone to be very rich - if you can attain that, but for the majority of the population, it doesn't make a huge difference. I'd rather make $70k living in a moderate apartment in Paris or Barcelona or Munich, than making $90 and living in Houston or San Jose any day. And don't forget average French have like 40 days of vacation. The Americans get 2-3 weeks if they are lucky.
I am not saying the US is miserable, but life isn't really about getting rich and being afford to buy all the fancy stuff you dream of.
Plus, I don't know what your benchmark is. In highly urban cities like NYC, San Francisco, Boston etc, housing price is very high as well and not many people can afford a large detached home with two car garages. If you are looking at the Paris metro, the only comparable city is probably NYC. Even Chicago can hardly compare with what Paris offers.
And I am sure smaller French cities are a lot more affordable and owning larger houses are not as hard. As to cars, it is a different culture. I don't understand why big cars can necessarily make your life better, I mean how?? How does a high end BMW make your life considerably better than a fully equipped Toyota? It is more about vanity than anything else. Actually I cease to understand those who want luxury cars. They provide really little except some boasting rights. In general, French car ownership is quite high as well, and that in Italy is even higher than the US I believe (although Italy is definitely poorer).
You are right equity doesn't equal rich - but in the US, how many are really rich? Most are mid income people, right? Additionally, I firmly believe a more equitable although less wealthy nation provides more sense of happiness. For example if you make $70k in a neighbourhood where most people make $50k-100k, you will be perfectly OK with you life, happier than if you make $90k but surrounded by folks who make $100-150k. The constant need to make money drags down your perceived quality of life significant. I agree the US provides more potential for someone to be very rich - if you can attain that, but for the majority of the population, it doesn't make a huge difference. I'd rather make $70k living in a moderate apartment in Paris or Barcelona or Munich, than making $90 and living in Houston or San Jose any day. And don't forget average French have like 40 days of vacation. The Americans get 2-3 weeks if they are lucky.
I am not saying the US is miserable, but life isn't really about getting rich and being afford to buy all the fancy stuff you dream of.
I wish more people would realize this too. Just because the US claims to have a GDP per capita doesn't mean that YOU specifically will have a richer life there.
Exactly, like I told fusion before, I'd rather be average in Toronto than be rich in Detroit or St.Louis or something. Doesn't matter how much money I have, I don't wanna get stabbed for wearing the wrong color in the wrong neighborhood.
Last edited by thedonwind; 04-17-2015 at 12:12 PM..
I can see some argument for Scandinavia vs. USA, but France? France is clearly poorer than the US to me. How many people in France can live like an average American guy, in a suburb with two cars in the driveway and a backyard for the kids to play in? You have to have real money in France to do that. Even compared to the Sweden, the average people in the US have more cars, bigger cars, newer cars, bigger houses, more space, more computers, newer computers, much more spending money (I estimate it is at least double in Virginia), and just more newer better goods in their possession. Perhaps Sweden is more orderly and equitable or has better health, but that doesn't equal rich. For France I don't see the comparison. France is a somewhat dirty and unorganized place than either US or Sweden. I don't see any advantages it carries.
I quote most of what Botticelli says (but not all). One little additional detail....average housing quality in North America is utter garbage compared to your average European house/condo (especially southern Europe).
Many suburban homes in the US and Canada are literally glorified cardboard boxes in quality...after so many years it still gives me the shivers when I see a house construction site, the appalling quality of materials they use...give me a smaller concrete/bricks and mortar and tile home anytime over a larger particle board, sheetrock and carpet dwelling.
Plus, I don't know what your benchmark is. In highly urban cities like NYC, San Francisco, Boston etc, housing price is very high as well and not many people can afford a large detached home with two car garages. If you are looking at the Paris metro, the only comparable city is probably NYC. Even Chicago can hardly compare with what Paris offers.
And I am sure smaller French cities are a lot more affordable and owning larger houses are not as hard. As to cars, it is a different culture. I don't understand why big cars can necessarily make your life better, I mean how?? How does a high end BMW make your life considerably better than a fully equipped Toyota? It is more about vanity than anything else. Actually I cease to understand those who want luxury cars. They provide really little except some boasting rights. In general, French car ownership is quite high as well, and that in Italy is even higher than the US I believe (although Italy is definitely poorer).
You are right equity doesn't equal rich - but in the US, how many are really rich? Most are mid income people, right? Additionally, I firmly believe a more equitable although less wealthy nation provides more sense of happiness. For example if you make $70k in a neighbourhood where most people make $50k-100k, you will be perfectly OK with you life, happier than if you make $90k but surrounded by folks who make $100-150k. The constant need to make money drags down your perceived quality of life significant. I agree the US provides more potential for someone to be very rich - if you can attain that, but for the majority of the population, it doesn't make a huge difference. I'd rather make $70k living in a moderate apartment in Paris or Barcelona or Munich, than making $90 and living in Houston or San Jose any day. And don't forget average French have like 40 days of vacation. The Americans get 2-3 weeks if they are lucky.
I am not saying the US is miserable, but life isn't really about getting rich and being afford to buy all the fancy stuff you dream of.
More money doesn't equal a better quality of life. The problem is that we are talking about money, not quality of life. You just switched it into a quality of life argument in this paragraph I am responding to. I am talking about money and strictly money. I don't think we can even talk about something like quality of life since what each individual wants varies so much. But money and wealth is something measurable. Money isn't a preference. A guy with $1 million is richer than a guy with $1,000 whether we like it or not. Whether or not the guy with $1 million has a better quality of life is subjective.
If the quality of life is higher in Sweden or the USA, I don't know for everyone but I prefer the US. Even something that might seem small like weather, if you hate the cold weather and darkness you will have a bad quality of life in Sweden. We can also look at society, because in the US and I assume Canada too the people are friendly and caring. Sweden in comparison can be a very rigid and lonely place. I have seen it many times. What is more clear to me is that the average guy in the US is richer than in Sweden, meaning he has more goods. I am making only slightly more now in the US than I did in Sweden, but my amount of stuff is more and I also have more money for vacation. I have a real house with a yard not a small apartment and also have the option of enjoying decent weather. A lot of people think Sweden is a miraculous utopia, but I can tell you that it is not that great and we have not so many choices in life compared to US and probably Canada too. You make it sound that Americans are forced at a whip to work all of the time. The truth is that you can be a normal guy who only makes 40,000 and just be happy with that and live modestly. Believe me that this $40,000 is a better living in the US than in Sweden not only because of cheaper stuff, but weather, relationships are better too. If someone decides they want more and more and work all the time and have the biggest house and best car, that is their choice because no one is forcing this. The truth is that any American guy can live like in Sweden but with more money left over if they decide to live modestly.
I quote most of what Botticelli says (but not all). One little additional detail....average housing quality in North America is utter garbage compared to your average European house/condo (especially southern Europe).
Many suburban homes in the US and Canada are literally glorified cardboard boxes in quality...after so many years it still gives me the shivers when I see a house construction site, the appalling quality of materials they use...give me a smaller concrete/bricks and mortar and tile home anytime over a larger particle board, sheetrock and carpet dwelling.
I am not familiar with southern Europe as much, but I will take an American house in Florida for $300,000 than the same exact house in gloomy Sweden for $1,000,0000.
More money doesn't equal a better quality of life. The problem is that we are talking about money, not quality of life. You just switched it into a quality of life argument in this paragraph I am responding to. I am talking about money and strictly money. I don't think we can even talk about something like quality of life since what each individual wants varies so much. But money and wealth is something measurable. Money isn't a preference. A guy with $1 million is richer than a guy with $1,000 whether we like it or not. Whether or not the guy with $1 million has a better quality of life is subjective.
If the quality of life is higher in Sweden or the USA, I don't know for everyone but I prefer the US. Even something that might seem small like weather, if you hate the cold weather and darkness you will have a bad quality of life in Sweden. We can also look at society, because in the US and I assume Canada too the people are friendly and caring. Sweden in comparison can be a very rigid and lonely place. I have seen it many times. What is more clear to me is that the average guy in the US is richer than in Sweden, meaning he has more goods. I am making only slightly more now in the US than I did in Sweden, but my amount of stuff is more and I also have more money for vacation. I have a real house with a yard not a small apartment and also have the option of enjoying decent weather. A lot of people think Sweden is a miraculous utopia, but I can tell you that it is not that great and we have not so many choices in life compared to US and probably Canada too. You make it sound that Americans are forced at a whip to work all of the time. The truth is that you can be a normal guy who only makes 40,000 and just be happy with that and live modestly. Believe me that this $40,000 is a better living in the US than in Sweden not only because of cheaper stuff, but weather, relationships are better too. If someone decides they want more and more and work all the time and have the biggest house and best car, that is their choice because no one is forcing this. The truth is that any American guy can live like in Sweden but with more money left over if they decide to live modestly.
OK, if it is purely money we are talking about, and nothing else, then yes, the US trumps most of the world - but not necessarily everyone. The Swiss make a lot more money than the US for example.
And you misunderstood me. I never believed the common view that Nordic country are great places to live. I don't know why many people seem to think that way, but I'd take Los Angeles over anywhere in Scandinavian countries. Prices are high, taxes are high, weather sucks, and the cities are all small and boring. And I generally don't like this cradle to grave philosophy. It could work for small countries like Norway or Finland, but definitely not larger nations. Plus, why people should deserve cradle to grave protection? Underachievers should be poor, period. Nordic countries don't sound appealing to me AT ALL. I'd rather live in Shanghai with its pollution and congestion than Oslo or Helsinki.
I am not familiar with southern Europe as much, but I will take an American house in Florida for $300,000 than the same exact house in gloomy Sweden for $1,000,0000.
what about Florida vs. Portugal or Spain?
Florida's weather is overrated. Only people from cold areas such Canada and Sweden will look at Florida with jealousy. Only the winter is good.
The problem with cheaper American cities is that life is extremely uninteresting, well, unless one loves boring dead quiet places.
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