Why Do So Many More Canadians Move To America Than Americans Move To Canada? (unemployment rate, colleges)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
This is admirable and I applaud your patriotism, despite the fact that I may personally find some of it misguided. People should never be ashamed to admit that they put personal, professional growth and the well being of their family before country. Humans by nature have some selfish tendencies, no matter how self sacrificing we are. If we find a situation where we can advance on a personal level, most will put that before their nation of birth.
There is a lot of truth in this but I think a lot of it comes down to personal circumstance, which is difficult to judge. For people from Canada, US, Australia, Singapore, Japan, Germany etc. (i.e. the rich world), there is no compelling reason to leave. These countries are wealthy, safe, clean and present opportunities to build a life and pursue leisure activities. People who leave rich countries for other places do it more for adventure, amenities (weather, big city, beach), personal growth via education or career or cultural experiences. But if someone is from a developing country, most leave for greater personal opportunities and freedoms that are not afforded in one's home country for themselves or their family. People put personal opportunities before living in their home country all the time around the globe - this is how Canada was and is being built. Look at all the migration to rich countries with somewhat open borders - they are flooded with people who want to come in. The issue with this, which is not usually talked about, is that home countries (primarily developing countries) lose much of their talent to rich countries like Canada and the US and IMO this hurts them from "developing". A small percentage of Canadians or Americans or French or German people living and working in other countries is minor compared to the drain on many of these countries. I have a very talented friend from Africa and he told me that when goes home, many people encourage him to return and a big part of the pitch is to help build his home country (and of course make big money in the process). I think there is truth in this perspective (which is what fusion put forth) but some countries/places definitely lose out more than others.
Last edited by johnathanc; 10-02-2014 at 06:52 AM..
You're right with this - but you also know very well how important it is to have pride in something.. In maintaining core values, heritage... things that make something strong and everlasting...
I agree with this as you know. But I don't see, at least for Canada, how outmigration is related to it. We don't really have a major outmigration/brain drain issue in this country.
You're talking to someone who is a Sagittarian, been to 17 countries with a love for many other parts of the world, cultures etc - but at the end of the day I think this country needs more individuals who think this country is worth building up, worth staying in and worth fighting for... I respect the right to leave it but i'm also sharing my own personal views about why moving away from the place isn't an option - FOR ME.. I do hope that is the case for more of my fellow countrymen than not to be honest or I think we will lose much in a very insidious way.
As for moving to a different country - won't entertain that until I retire and have done my part for King and country and made this a stronger place.. I will feel at that point that I have done my job for this great nation. Whether you think that is stupid or not is irrelevant to me quite frankly as this is a fundamental part of my value system and being. If you want to move from place to place and not build up a home and love a place with your heart and soul than by all means do what nature intends for you free from my judgement.
Then keep your personal views FOR YOURSELF! If you do want to share, don't judge others for not sharing your point of view.
We are all different and some of us like to explore, try something new, learn about other cultures and ways of doing things, learn from other cultures and share our experience, challedge ourselves in a new environment, give our kids more opportunities for their future or just have some adventure. Is this not what life is about?
And, by the way, why should anybody care what JFK said in his inaugural address?
There are lots of "countries" who take from their citizens and their families every day, persecute, imprisone and kill them. So much about "your" "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country".
I don't know how old you are, but maybe it's time to start thinking for yourself instead of religiously following what other, famous or not, people say in their speeches.
Last but not least, your country of birth/origin is a coincidence. Your nationality is not what defines you. Get out and live in a different country for a while. That will open your eyes and you will start better understand that who you are has nothing to do with your nationality and "belonging" to a particular country.
Last edited by movingwiththewind; 10-02-2014 at 07:49 AM..
Don't get me wrong either Netwit.. I have said over and over that I respect the personal choice's others need to make but I for one feel that the best way to build this country up is to stay and pay taxes and make the economy strong here of course for other reasons as well - volunteering and helping others and building a strong community. I feel it is actually a noble thing for one to build up experience in another country but I do have a tinge of bitterness if the goal isn't to kind of bring some of that wealth back to our great country.. Call me Candiancentric - but yeah I am not ashamed to say I have a bias for Canada and if anything I think we can use more of that type of mentality here and who better than people who are rooted here to spread the word.. The world could use more Canada.
Your first line should be all the explanation needed to clarify your position adequately enough for all. This is after all, one of the fundamentals of a free and developed society; we all have opinions and should be free to express them, regardless if popular or not.
I believe you understand also that those debating with you now, for the most part, are doing so with the restraint shown by the ethical minded with those imperatives at the fore and not intending to poke you in the eye about your patriotism.
Summarizing: It is your position that those Canadians who avail themselves of an opportunity to improve or experience another country's offerings should feel some filial obligation towards Canada by having her benefit from those opportunities.
It is the alternate position that Canadians should be as open to available opportunities elsewhere without feeling constrained by a sense of disloyalty in so doing.
Then keep your personal views FOR YOURSELF! If you do want to share, don't judge others for not sharing your point of view.
We are all different and some of us like to explore, try something new, learn about other cultures and ways of doing things, learn from other cultures and share our experience, challedge ourselves in a new environment and just have some adventure.
And, by the way, why should anybody care what JFK in his inaugural address said?
There are lots of "countries" who take from their citizens and their families every day, persecute, imprisone and kill them. So much about "your" "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country".
I don't know how old you are, but maybe it's time to start thinking for yourself instead of religiously following what other, famous or not, people say in their speeches.
Last but not least, your country of birth/origin is a coincidence. Your nationality is not what defines you. Get out and live in a different country for a while. That will open your eyes and you will start better understand that who you are has nothing to do with your nationality and "belonging" to a particular country.
Why isn't his opinion expressed as HIS OPINION got the same acceptability as others? Especially with his stating multiple times he respect's those individuals decisions to grasp opportunities elsewhere.
He is using JFK's speech as an example of what he finds admirable in a set of personal ethics. Why is that not also acceptable?
I take exception to only that part of your post where you admonish him to "keep his personal views to himself". That is not conducive to the free and open exchange of ideas we should be protecting at all costs regardless of popularity of said opinion.
I agree with this as you know. But I don't see, at least for Canada, how outmigration is related to it. We don't really have a major outmigration/brain drain issue in this country.
It was a much more serious problem in the past, but the "Canadian Brain Drain" is still alive and well. The government tries to make up for this by attracting skilled talent from abroad.
"The Canadian brain drain
Canada suffers from a desperate and growing shortage of computer developers and software engineers. Over the past several decades, Silicon Valley has claimed our best and brightest. An estimated 350,000 Canadians now live in the the Bay Area — a veritable lost generation lured by good, high-paying tech jobs and access to collaborators and capital. The consequences are plain to see and getting worse. Right now, only one in 10 organizations in Canada is able to meet critical IT needs in emerging areas like mobile, cloud computing, analytics and social media, according to a new IBM study. By 2016, we’ll be a full 100,000 tech workers short."
Financial Post: Why Canada Is Failing at Tech
Why isn't his opinion expressed as HIS OPINION got the same acceptability as others? Especially with his stating multiple times he respect's those individuals decisions to grasp opportunities elsewhere.
He is using JFK's speech as an example of what he finds admirable in a set of personal ethics. Why is that not also acceptable?
I take exception to only that part of your post where you admonish him to "keep his personal views to himself". That is not conducive to the free and open exchange of ideas we should be protecting at all costs regardless of popularity of said opinion.
I fully agree with you. His opinion is not only as valuable and fully acceptable as from anybody else on this thread, but also admirable in many ways.
However, although he says he respects other people's opinions, he still shows his disapproval and judgment of others who somewhat disagree and prefer to move somewhere else IN HIS EVERY POST! So much about showing his respect for others' opinions!
And this is why he uses JFK's speech, by the way, NOT to show his admiration, but he basically using it to question other people's character, motivation and personal ethics for leaving Canada in the first place. He even challenged one poster for not responding to the quote.
In other words, his position and point of view is fully acceptable, but his judgmental "teachings" are not, not only to me, but also to many other posters. Post after post, it just went too far for my taste.
This is why I said "keep your personal views for yourself". Not nice, I agree. I didn't want to be nice. I wanted to make a point. I did say though: "If you do want to share, don't judge others for not sharing your point of view".
I hope, it makes sense.
Last edited by movingwiththewind; 10-02-2014 at 08:49 AM..
It was a much more serious problem in the past, but the "Canadian Brain Drain" is still alive and well. The government tries to make up for this by attracting skilled talent from abroad.
"The Canadian brain drain
Canada suffers from a desperate and growing shortage of computer developers and software engineers. Over the past several decades, Silicon Valley has claimed our best and brightest. An estimated 350,000 Canadians now live in the the Bay Area — a veritable lost generation lured by good, high-paying tech jobs and access to collaborators and capital. The consequences are plain to see and getting worse. Right now, only one in 10 organizations in Canada is able to meet critical IT needs in emerging areas like mobile, cloud computing, analytics and social media, according to a new IBM study. By 2016, we’ll be a full 100,000 tech workers short."
I don't dispute any of that, but that's a global issue in one particular sector, more than a solely Canadian one. Silicon Valley drains much of the top talent in its field from all over the world.
...honestly as much as I'm happy for you and your family I just could never relate to permanently leaving our great nation for another. There are probably plenty of Americans who feel the same way, even if they had better job or life opportunities in Canada - they have a pride in homeland and want to support it thick and thin and I can relate! ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnathanc
People put personal opportunities before living in their home country all the time around the globe - this is how Canada was and is being built. Look at all the migration to rich countries with somewhat open borders - they are flooded with people who want to come in. The issue with this, which is not usually talked about, is that home countries (primarily developing countries) lose much of their talent to rich countries like Canada and the US and IMO this hurts them from "developing". A small percentage of Canadians or Americans or French or German people living and working in other countries is minor compared to the drain on many of these countries.
Great post, johnathanc.
Like you, I an immigrant and a child of immigrants. The perception of many Canadians and Americans of the immigrant experience tends to be overly-romantic, one-sided, and two-dimensional. And that's because they view it only from the perspective of a multiple-generation Canadian or American.
Fusion, I'm not at all offended by your opinions, but I am not surprised by, or feel any sense of guilt by them, either. In fact, I'm quite used to views like yours. And that's because my parents, who chose to emigrate to Canada as a very young couple in the mid-60s, received almost identical messages from friends and family who remained in the UK (though many others also came to Canada and the US).
In fact, I remember both my grandmothers, while visiting Canada, occasionally expressing outright anger at their children for having made the choice to abandon their "great nation," AND at Canada for having taken my parents away. And, despite my parents' pleadings that they join us in Canada, both chose to remain in the UK permanently because they much preferred the European way of life. So, believe me, your sentiments work both ways.
And those sentiments are a good thing. Of course I don't want to see a huge exodus out of Canada any more than I'd like to see a huge exodus out of Scotland. But, as Acajack pointed out, your concerns are unnecessary. If a tiny country like Scotland, with a population of approximately 6 million people, can continue to flourish despite a huge diaspora across every other English-speaking country, then Canada, with more than 5 times the population and higher rates of immigration, will continue to thrive regardless of a tiny minority of us leaving. I'm not at all worried, so it would seem that I have more faith in Canada than do you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2
Ultimately, if you are working here, pay taxes here and are supporting the economy here than you are supporting your homeland in a fundamentally important way. People with roots in the country that stick with it are truly the bread and butter of any society.
Well, I don't disagree with you, but this could apply to EVERY immigrant to Canada, as well, could it not? And if I remember correctly, your partner is from another country, yes? So, perhaps he should have remained in HIS country, or at least return to work there, to pay taxes there and to support the economy there in order to support HIS homeland in a fundamentally important way? Or is that different?
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2
... What my concern is if everyone had that inclination we'd be in trouble so it isn't a decision i'd personally take lightly and I put certain things ahead of my own personal happiness and pride in country is one of them
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2
I feel it is actually a noble thing for one to build up experience in another country but I do have a tinge of bitterness if the goal isn't to kind of bring some of that wealth back to our great country..
Hmm. Okay, you think we should be able to have interesting discussions on CD without anyone playing the "judgmental" card, so bear with me here. Though off-topic, I want to use an analogy and apply it to the basic premise of your argument. The analogy is raising children.
I've noticed that a number of posters on the Canadian threads (and large numbers on CD generally), do not have children, and many are over the age of 35. I assume that for at least some, including you, that was a personal choice. I presume that raising children - the future generation of your country - was not an interest of yours.
Well, that's okay. I get it. I'm certainly not the kind of insufferable person that thinks that everyone should have kids, or that people need to have kids in order to lead happy, fulfilling lives. Absolutely not. BUT, to apply something you said earlier, "my concern is if everyone had that inclination we'd be in trouble so it isn't a decision i'd personally take lightly and I put certain things ahead of my own personal happiness and pride in country is one of them."
In fact, it's hard for me not to notice that easily 40-50% of people I know in my age range (late 30s to late 40s) have never had kids and don't plan to. BruSan may be an anomaly in HIS generation, but the childfree in Canada, the US, and many European countries by no means make up a tiny minority amongst GenXers. They are a very large minority and perhaps growing steadily.
What will happen if more and more people choose to forego having children (and judging by the millennials, it appears that IS a possibility)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2
Don't get me wrong either Netwit.. I have said over and over that I respect the personal choice's others need to make but I for one feel that the best way to build this country up is to stay and pay taxes and make the economy strong here of course for other reasons as well - volunteering and helping others and building a strong community
Yes, this basically sums up exactly how I feel about the economic, cultural and political implications of SO many people choosing not to have children. Most western countries are already well BELOW replacement levels; hence the need (understandably) for immigrants. That God for immigrants, because without them, quite frankly, we' be effed. What really cracks me up is when I hear people - including 2 of my ex's siblings in Canada - who have chosen not to have kids, but who actually have the audacity to complain about immigration.
You feel a "tinge of bitterness" if the goal isn't to bring wealth back in the "homeland"? I think I understand, because I feel similarly about SO many people choosing to bow out of the responsibility of raising future taxpayers (and educators, healthcare providers, scholars, innovators, leaders, policy makers, etc.) for the benefit of society as a whole.
I'm just a regular, exhausted parent with lots of responsibility and little time to do it all. I'm no different from any other parent. And I hope that my 3 intelligent, kind, respectful, conscientious kids will work to make their country and the world a better place. To that end, I HAVE done at least some of my part. I have made valuable contributions to "build a strong community." And personal sacrifice? I could write a short book on it.
Last edited by newdixiegirl; 10-02-2014 at 11:56 AM..
I've noticed that a number of posters on the Canadian threads (and large numbers on CD generally), do not have children, and many are over the age of 35. I assume that for at least some, including you, that that was a personal choice. I presume that raising children - the future generation of your country - was not an interest of yours.
Well, that's okay. I get it. I'm certainly not the kind of insufferable person that thinks that everyone should have kids, or that people need to have kids in order to lead happy, fulfilling lives. Absolutely not. BUT, to apply something you said earlier, "my concern is if everyone had that inclination we'd be in trouble so it isn't a decision i'd personally take lightly and I put certain things ahead of my own personal happiness and pride in country is one of them."
In fact, it's hard for me not to notice that easily 40-50% of people I know in my age range (late 30s to late 40s) have never had kids and don't plan to. BruSan may be an anomaly in HIS generation, but the childfree in Canada, the US, and many European countries by no means make up a tiny minority amongst GenXers. They are a very large minority and perhaps growing steadily.
What will happen if more and more people choose to forego having children (and judging by the millennials, it appears that IS a possibility)?
Yes, this basically sums up exactly how I feel about the economic, cultural and political implications of SO many people choosing not to have children. Most western countries are already well BELOW replacement levels; hence the need (understandably) for immigrants. That God for immigrants, because without them, quite frankly, we' be effed. What really cracks me up is when I hear people - including 2 of my ex's siblings in Canada - who have chosen not to have kids, but who actually have the audacity to complain about immigration.
You feel a "tinge of bitterness" if the goal isn't to bring wealth back in the "homeland"? I think I understand, because I feel similarly about SO many people choosing to bow out of the responsibility of raising future taxpayers (and educators, healthcare providers, scholars, innovators, leaders, policy makers, etc.) for the benefit of society as a whole.
I'm just a regular, exhausted parent with lots of responsibility and little time to do it all. I'm no different from any other parent. And I hope that my 3 intelligent, kind, respectful, conscientious kids will work to make their country and the world a better place. To that end, I HAVE done at least some of my part. I have made valuable contributions to "build a strong community." And personal sacrifice? I could write a short book on it.
I don't rep very often but I will be repping this. It's as big or bigger an issue than outmigration in my view.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
